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Thread: Camel - Stationary Traveler

  1. #26
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulrus View Post
    But everything about Camel at this point in their history is summed up in this video. Playing outdoors in the rain, with a guy nowhere near any of the formative classic era membership singing lead vocal on a song that doesn't sound very Camel-y. Andy Latimer does NOT look like he's having a good time.
    LOL - does anyone know what show that was from? Pretty hilarious and...unexpected. Definitely not a high point in their career, but it was good to hear that song again! I agree with your thoughts on it though.

  2. #27
    Moderator Sean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    Complaining that any Camel album is "too pop" is sorta ignoring the fact that Camel has always been the shallow end of the progressive gene pool.

    IMO
    Gee, Carl. I think you could have articulated that in a less mean spirited way.

  3. #28
    Moderator Sean's Avatar
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    Think I should just censor his replies until they are more agreeable?

    Imagine an alternate universe where ran PE that way.

    Would it have made it better if we treated everyone that made a comment like Carl's with a heavy hand?

  4. #29
    Moderator Sean's Avatar
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    I'm just asking, because his comment is a prime example of the kind of remarks people bring up when I find them licking their wounds in the hall, talking about how they haven't come to this place in years because we allow people to talk that way.

    So sometime I wonder "what if" we would have approached things differently? Would it have given us a better rep?

    Personally, I think running a forum like this is a thankless job at times and even one censored into being a Utopian, pro-band forum would have it's detractors and "wound lickers".

    Do you agree?

  5. #30
    All-night hippo at diner Tom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    Complaining that any Camel album is "too pop" is sorta ignoring the fact that Camel has always been the shallow end of the progressive gene pool.
    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    Harsh. I would never call Camel the shallow end of the progressive gene pool (after all they have one of many peoples' top guitarists), but only the shallow end of the Canterbury prog gene pool.
    There's a kind of myopia embedded in both these comments. Camel and National Health are more accessible than Gentle Giant or Soft Machine, but "shallow end" is a staggeringly wrong description. It reminds me of the autophagous snobbery of Lisp language discussion groups.
    ... “there’s a million ways to learn” (which there are, by the way), but ironically, there’s a million things to eat, I’m just not sure I want to eat them all. -- Jeff Berlin

  6. #31
    All-night hippo at diner Tom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean View Post
    I'm just asking, because his comment is a prime example of the kind of remarks people bring up when I find them licking their wounds in the hall, talking about how they haven't come to this place in years because we allow people to talk that way.

    So sometime I wonder "what if" we would have approached things differently? Would it have given us a better rep?

    Personally, I think running a forum like this is a thankless job at times and even one censored into being a Utopian, pro-band forum would have it's detractors and "wound lickers".

    Do you agree?
    A pro-band forum would be useless (and very very boring). The most valuable content in the forum is the articulate apologia, describing a work's virtues to a presumptively unsympathetic audience.

    That moderator moderates best who moderates least.
    ... “there’s a million ways to learn” (which there are, by the way), but ironically, there’s a million things to eat, I’m just not sure I want to eat them all. -- Jeff Berlin

  7. #32
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom View Post
    There's a kind of myopia embedded in both these comments. Camel and National Health are more accessible than Gentle Giant or Soft Machine, but "shallow end" is a staggeringly wrong description. It reminds me of the autophagous snobbery of Lisp language discussion groups.
    Note that I didn't use the word "fact," but instead use of the phrase "I would never call Camel _____, but..."

    I think if PE was going to revise the posting guidelines or whatever, it should be to add something along the lines of "Use the word 'fact' sparingly. Consider using a phrase like 'In my opinion' instead."

  8. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom View Post
    A pro-band forum would be useless (and very very boring). The most valuable content in the forum is the articulate apologia, describing a work's virtues to a presumptively unsympathetic audience.

    That moderator moderates best who moderates least.
    Yes, about that last sentence. Kind of like in boxing, where it's said that a great referee is one you don't even notice inside the ring.

  9. #34
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean View Post
    I'm just asking, because his comment is a prime example of the kind of remarks people bring up when I find them licking their wounds in the hall, talking about how they haven't come to this place in years because we allow people to talk that way.

    So sometime I wonder "what if" we would have approached things differently? Would it have given us a better rep?

    Personally, I think running a forum like this is a thankless job at times and even one censored into being a Utopian, pro-band forum would have it's detractors and "wound lickers".

    Do you agree?
    If you were to change the posting guidelines in an effort to appeal to those who have been offended or "hurt" by posts on PE, you would be chasing the wind. People who are that fragile would always find reason eventually to be offended or hurt.

    I also suspect that such personalities would not add depth to the forum.

  10. #35
    A1 Pressure Points
    Instruments [All Other] – Andy Latimer
    Synthesizer [Fairlight] – Haydn Bendall

    A2 Refugee
    Accordion – Ton Scherpenzeel
    Drums – Paul Burgess
    Piano, Bass, Guitar, Vocals – Andy Latimer

    A3 Vopos
    Bass – David Paton
    Electronic Drums [Drumulator] – Andy Latimer
    Guitar, Piano, Vocals – Andy Latimer
    Synthesizer [Fairlight] – Haydn Bendall
    Synthesizer [Ppg, Juno 60, Yamaha Cs-80] – Andy Latimer
    Synthesizer [Yamaha Cs-80, Prophet] – Ton Scherpenzeel

    A4 Cloak And Dagger Man
    Bass – David Paton
    Drums – Paul Burgess
    Guitar [Electric And 12 String] – Andy Latimer
    Synthesizer [Prophet, Juno 60] – Ton Scherpenzeel
    Vocals – Chris Rainbow

    A5 Stationary Traveller
    Drums – Paul Burgess
    Guitar [Electric And Classical], Bass, Panpipes – Andy Latimer
    Piano [Grand], Synthesizer [Prophet, Ppg, Juno 60] – Ton Scherpenzeel

    B1 West Berlin
    Drums – Paul Burgess
    Guitar, Bass, Vocals – Andy Latimer
    Piano [Grand], Synthesizer [Prophet, Ppg] – Ton Scherpenzeel

    B2 Fingertips

    Bass [Fretless] – David Paton
    Electronic Drums [Drumulator], Vocals – Andy Latimer
    Piano [Grand], Synthesizer [Korg, Ppg], Organ – Ton Scherpenzeel
    Saxophone – Mel Collins

    B3 Missing
    Instruments [All] – Andy Latimer
    Synthesizer [Ppg Voices] – Haydn Bendall

    B4 After Words
    Piano [Grand], Synthesizer [Prophet] – Ton Scherpenzeel

    B5 Long Goodbyes
    Bass [Fretless] – David Paton
    Drums – Paul Burgess
    Guitar, Flute – Andy Latimer
    Piano [Grand], Synthesizer [Prophet] – Ton Scherpenzeel
    Vocals – Chris Rainbow

  11. #36
    Member Emeritus (A.M.P.) rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom View Post
    Camel and National Health are more accessible than Gentle Giant or Soft Machine, but "shallow end" is a staggeringly wrong description.
    Geez people. You're offended by THIS??? I only meant Camel is 85% pop, 15% progressive, hence on the shallow end where Univers Zero and Henry Cow are the deep end.

    Yes, Latimer's solos are most expressive. Like Gilmour he wrings a lot of emotion out of not-so-many notes. But his songs are hummable, vocal, structured conventionally and using standard instrumentation. Mostly.

    Sometimes I wonder if I have autism. I cannot understand why some people take offense at some seemingly-innocuous things (but not others which I find really horrific).
    Last edited by rcarlberg; 09-11-2017 at 06:24 PM.

  12. #37
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    Very good album. Listened to it mainly in the 80s, many times. Since I knew only probably 2-3 other Camel songs during that time, the issue of whether I'd find this Camel album more 'pop' compared to previous Camel albums was basically a moot issue for me. After the 80s, I still don't know a lot of Camel, and listened to this one maybe only 5-6 times per decade, and often skipping the songs "Fingertips" and "Long Goodbyes", though all of the album is enjoyable. Many of its songs have pop elements and this isn't happy/sunshine pop -- it's basically a dramatic semi-dark pop sense. More autumn/winter than spring/summer. If you enjoy melodic Mike Oldfield vocal tunes with pop elements like "Five Miles Out", "Foreign Affair", "Trick of the Light" and somewhat similar melodic late Fish-era Marillion (mid-to-late 80s) dramatic tunes like "The Last Straw" and "White Russian", check out this Camel album if you haven't.

  13. #38
    Member Emeritus (A.M.P.) rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Also to accuse the album of being "too 80s" kinda ignores the fact that every album (not just Camel) is a product of its time, to some degree or another. The only way to avoid it is to be anachronistic -- which is usually seen as a BAD thing.

  14. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Sean View Post
    I'm just asking, because his comment is a prime example of the kind of remarks people bring up when I find them licking their wounds in the hall, talking about how they haven't come to this place in years because we allow people to talk that way.

    So sometime I wonder "what if" we would have approached things differently? Would it have given us a better rep?

    Personally, I think running a forum like this is a thankless job at times and even one censored into being a Utopian, pro-band forum would have it's detractors and "wound lickers".

    Do you agree?
    His comment was not that bad, even still, everyone is entitled to one. And no pro-band forums please. Those are just "fanboy clubs", and those are everywhere for people to join if that's what they prefer.

  15. #40
    All-night hippo at diner Tom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    Geez people. You're offended by THIS??? I only meant Camel is 85% pop, 15% progressive, hence on the shallow end where Univers Zero and Henry Cow are the deep end.
    Offended? Not at all. I responded because I believed your characterization was misleading ("Someone is wrong on the Internet!"). But you should feel free to slag off bands in much harsher terms than any you used in this thread.
    ... “there’s a million ways to learn” (which there are, by the way), but ironically, there’s a million things to eat, I’m just not sure I want to eat them all. -- Jeff Berlin

  16. #41
    Member Emeritus (A.M.P.) rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Camel is a band I can play when my wife is in the room.

    Just sayin'.

  17. #42
    Member Mr.Krautman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    Geez people. You're offended by THIS??? I only meant Camel is 85% pop, 15% progressive, hence on the shallow end where Univers Zero and Henry Cow are the deep end.

    Yes, Latimer's solos are most expressive. Like Gilmour he wrings a lot of emotion out of not-so-many notes. But his songs are hummable, vocal, structured conventionally and using standard instrumentation. Mostly.

    Sometimes I wonder if I have autism. I cannot understand why some people take offense at some seemingly-innocuous things (but not others which I find really horrific).
    I don't think anybody here was really offended by your words, even if your comments about Camel were a little bit harsh and unfair if solely based on Sationary Traveller which is not their greatest record and not really representative of their work.
    Even Henry Cow has some "vocal, hummable and conventionally structured songs" inserted in their longer experimental and complex works. Does it means that Henry Cow is 15% pop and 85% prog ? Or 5% pop,17% prog, 23% free-jazz , 2% rock and 53% R.I.O ? How do you measure that ? I don't have a progness factor meter, neither do I need these simplistic classifications to appreciate both Camel and Henry Cow.

  18. #43
    Member Mr.Krautman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    Camel is a band I can play when my wife is in the room.

    Just sayin'.
    THIS would be the ultimate PROG/NO-PROG test ! (no progness factor meter needed)

  19. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Krautman View Post
    THIS would be the ultimate PROG/NO-PROG test ! (no progness factor meter needed)
    Well of course, that's why I like Camel, I'm female. I also like Gentle Giant, Caravan, Van Der Graaf Generator, Genesis, Yes, Rush, Renaissance, Hoelderlin, Eloy, Novalis, Triumvirat and many others, so I suppose they all score low on the progness-meter.

  20. #45
    Member Emeritus (A.M.P.) rcarlberg's Avatar
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    I don't know how far in to the deep end YOUR tastes go Freebird, I mean Rarebird, but if my wife can't touch the bottom with her feet she panics.

  21. #46
    Well, I'm not sure I like Henry Cow, but I like some Frank Zappa.

    And I still consider Camel prog. If a hummable melody makes something less prog, so be it, but I don't agree.

  22. #47
    Member bill g's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    Geez people. You're offended by THIS??? I only meant Camel is 85% pop, 15% progressive, hence on the shallow end where Univers Zero and Henry Cow are the deep end.

    Yes, Latimer's solos are most expressive. Like Gilmour he wrings a lot of emotion out of not-so-many notes. But his songs are hummable, vocal, structured conventionally and using standard instrumentation. Mostly.

    Sometimes I wonder if I have autism. I cannot understand why some people take offense at some seemingly-innocuous things (but not others which I find really horrific).
    I understand, although nothing on this site has ever offended me, even if it's slagging Cirrus Bay. People are passionate, and some take their music very personally, because they relate to it on such a deep level. I suppose the word 'shallow' could throw someone into thinking you felt Camel's music was shallow and Henry Cow's music is deep, an assessment I would strongly disagree with, but I would hardly be offended by a dissenting opinion. But that wasn't what you meant anyway.

    So everyone's friends again, right?

  23. #48
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    If someone thinks that early-mid 70s Camel was 15% Prog and 85% Pop, then they need to invest in one of those Ear Wax Removal kits from the local drugstore.

  24. #49
    Moderator Sean's Avatar
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    How about those ear candles?

  25. #50
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    Never tried one. I can vouch for the other, though.

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