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Thread: Fripp-Belew Disagreements Out in the Open Now

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    Fripp-Belew Disagreements Out in the Open Now

    If you've been following the tidbits on Facebook and also at DGM Live, Fripp and Belew have had a significant disagreement as to what repertoire the respective musicians can perform. Belew absolutely does not want the current band to perform anything that involves stuff he sang on, except as instrumentals.

    My understanding is that the 1980s repertoire was credited to all 4 musicians. Usually, the person who comes up with the melody and lyrics get songwriting credit. Except as indicated otherwise by the authors. In this case, this was probably the situation of "except as indicated otherwise by the authors", who decided to give all four bandmembers songwriting credit . Sounds like this was done in and an egalitarian spirit that recognized every members contribution to the greater whole .

    In any event, it doesn't really matter, as the long-standing ASCAP and BMI rules relating to compulsory licenses allows anyone to perform any song in public.

    It's sad to see the disagreement, especially as these people approach their respective Erik Ericksonian moments of reflecting on a life well lived and trying to find meaning and proper summation and reflection of a life's work.

    Playing music is the most beautiful thing in life, at least if not the very top, then it should be right there among the top things that give joy to one's daily existence. Personally I would love to hear Adrian sing on "easy money " or Jakko tackle "Matte Kudasai".

    The latter song has kind of become a standard. Even a schmuck like me figured it out by ear and plays it regularly. You know who sings it even better than Belew? A certain Canadian woman who started out singing country and western and then moved onto standards and torch songs . you think anybody has a problem with her singing it? I would hope not .

    The Great thing about a standard is that the music is so beautiful, it invites people to interpret it.

    Life is too short man, settle it out with cakes and coffee and tea or whatever. Music is a beautiful thing .

    by the way, lost in the details of this, Fripp wrote the following very interesting tidbit :

    "More good news: King Crimson Formation 9.1, the fourth Definitive Formation by my reckoning, continues on, accessing KC repertoire of past, present and future."

    9.1 is not 8.0.

  2. #2
    Well, they did "Indiscipline" during the last leg of the tour, with re-arranged vocals. I had not heard anything about Belew insisting they not cover the 80's material. Just that he was upset in not being invited to join the lineup.
    "I want to be someone, who someone would want to be." Marillion

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    I have heard - and I want to stress that I have heard, that this is a rumor and not something I can back up - that Robert does not get along with Martha Belew at all. That they have very different cultural touchstones, more detailed mention of which would violate the PE Terms of Service (that is a hint), and that he may possibly consider her the architect of Adrian's getting his back up on this issue. In support of which, consider that Ade has always been noted for his abilities at getting along with people, and so his recent inability to deal with a situation he successfully dealt with for decades is a bit surprising. But that would make sense if it wasn't entirely he who had the problem with it.

    Also, his "ownership" of the 80s-90-00s songs, and his insistence of everyone but him and Robert being paid as sidemen is very much the way things are done in Nashville: Where a singer may come in with an album's worth of songs recorded on a cheap cassette machine with an acoustic guitar, and leave with a finished full-band album. Where, even if those Nashville Cats sessionmen made that complete album out of the roughest of basics, the songs are considered to be entirely the work of that singer and whatever professional-songwriter collaborators he had, and not the work of the musicians. And where Adrian has lived for a number of years, lived there until perhaps the local business culture seeped into him.
    Last edited by Baribrotzer; 08-24-2017 at 11:04 PM.

  5. #5
    Well, I guess this kills any chance of a future Fripp-Belew collaboration, either in KC or a ProjeKct. Too bad, as I love the music they make together.

    Probably also kills any hope of The Crimson Projekct ever touring again. I loved that band. Saw them multiple times.

    Still don't think this current KC compares to any of the versions with Adrian, but I'll be seeing them this fall in DC. Hope they will play Indiscipline because it's one of KC's best songs. Will be weird to hear it without Adrian, though.

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    Member Mr.Krautman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    Well, they did "Indiscipline" during the last leg of the tour, with re-arranged vocals. I had not heard anything about Belew insisting they not cover the 80's material. Just that he was upset in not being invited to join the lineup.
    Well... if Belew saw this I can only side with him. Jakko's "re-arranged" vocal peformance on Indiscipline was inappropriate and completely ruined the song. A fully instrumental version would have been much better. Indiscipline is not Epitaph (the latter is much better suited to Jakko's vocal range and feeling).

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    Member Haruspex Carnage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Krautman View Post
    Well... if Belew saw this I can only side with him. Jakko's "re-arranged" vocal peformance on Indiscipline was inappropriate and completely ruined the song. A fully instrumental version would have been much better. Indiscipline is not Epitaph (the latter is much better suited to Jakko's vocal range and feeling).
    i really disagree. Jakko taking the song and copying exactly what Adrian did would be inappropriate and completely ruin it. He made it his own and i like it, shrug.

  8. #8
    Sad indeed. Where's Tony Levin in all of this, he shares a lot of the writing credits, and still plays with both Adrian and Robert. Or Bill Bruford for that matter.

    I guess Adrian did write a lot of the lyrics, although that's only part of the songs. And I've seen him play Red at an Adrian Belew and Friends show. Is that OK but not Starless or 21st Century Schizoid Man because they have lyrics?

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    Member Mr.Krautman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haruspex Carnage View Post
    i really disagree. Jakko taking the song and copying exactly what Adrian did would be inappropriate and completely ruin it. He made it his own and i like it, shrug.
    I understand and liked Jakko's renditions of most old KC songs and some were quite good but (IMO) it didn't worked for Indiscipline: Belew's crazyness is hard to emulate and an integral part of this song. Hearing a melodic slow-song version of Indiscipline was weird...

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Baribrotzer View Post
    I have heard - and I want to stress that I have heard, that this is a rumor and not something I can back up - that Robert does not get along with Martha Belew at all.
    Wow - Robert Fripp doesn't get along with someone? I can't believe it.

  11. #11
    Wives are the best gate-keepers.
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by N_Singh View Post

    My understanding is that the 1980s repertoire was credited to all 4 musicians. Usually, the person who comes up with the melody and lyrics get songwriting credit. Except as indicated otherwise by the authors. In this case, this was probably the situation of "except as indicated otherwise by the authors", who decided to give all four bandmembers songwriting credit . Sounds like this was done in and an egalitarian spirit that recognized every members contribution to the greater whole
    The "let's credit the entire band in all the bylines" maneuver is almost always an egalitarian thing. Really, it's a move to defuse any potential infighting in relation to publishing royalties. It's been said a lot of bands break up over such things, because one guy or two guys in the group are making more money than the others, because of the publishing.

    I remember Bruford saying once that, at least in regards to Yes (or maybe just ABWH, I'm not sure which), when you saw his name in the byline on a song, it had more to do with an arrangement he had with the others regarding sharing the publishing royalties, as opposed to him actually saying "Oh, I think the next chord should be F#major7th" or whatever.

    John Entwistle once said he started "writing songs for Roger's voice", so that he could get more songs onto The Who's albums (I guess him and Pete each singing one song per record was about all Roger was gonna stand for), and I've also heard the songs he's credited with writing on Tommy were really written by Townshend, but he gave the credits to Thunderfingers because I guess he was upset he wasn't going to have any songs on the record, being that it was a big concept album that Pete had drempt up and apparently wasn't willing to let anyone else contribute to it.

    I think that's also why, for instance, the B-side of Bohemian Rhapsody was I'm In Love With My Car, because Roger Taylor was probably perturbed that all the songs on the singles up til then had been written by either Freddie Mercury or Dr. Brian May. I think it's also why John Deacon "broke his vows of silence" to let it be known he wanted You're My Best Friend to be a single. It's also why, I think, Beth was probably the B-side of Detroit Rock City.

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    Legally, the only thing that forms the basis of a copyright of any song the melody itself and the lyrics. Not the arrangement, not the backing chords, not the comping, not the actual title ( which is why a horrible corporate punk rock band could actually have a hit song called "Boulevard of broken dreams". )

    So the "Nashville" system of copywriting songs is not that unusual . Think of the music as a lead sheet, the only thing that matters are the lyrics and the melody.

    Unless the band or group provides otherwise. For example George Michael completely wrote "careless whisper" allby himself but gave equal credit to the other guy as well. I'm sure with the royalties, it set him up for life .

    One has to believe that this is about someone being hurt about not being included in the latest incarnation of the band.

    Imagine if David sylvian had said "yes" in 1992 or 93

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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    The "let's credit the entire band in all the bylines" maneuver is almost always an egalitarian thing. Really, it's a move to defuse any potential infighting in relation to publishing royalties. It's been said a lot of bands break up over such things, because one guy or two guys in the group are making more money than the others, because of the publishing.

    I remember Bruford saying once that, at least in regards to Yes (or maybe just ABWH, I'm not sure which), when you saw his name in the byline on a song, it had more to do with an arrangement he had with the others regarding sharing the publishing royalties, as opposed to him actually saying "Oh, I think the next chord should be F#major7th" or whatever.

    John Entwistle once said he started "writing songs for Roger's voice", so that he could get more songs onto The Who's albums (I guess him and Pete each singing one song per record was about all Roger was gonna stand for), and I've also heard the songs he's credited with writing on Tommy were really written by Townshend, but he gave the credits to Thunderfingers because I guess he was upset he wasn't going to have any songs on the record, being that it was a big concept album that Pete had drempt up and apparently wasn't willing to let anyone else contribute to it.

    I think that's also why, for instance, the B-side of Bohemian Rhapsody was I'm In Love With My Car, because Roger Taylor was probably perturbed that all the songs on the singles up til then had been written by either Freddie Mercury or Dr. Brian May. I think it's also why John Deacon "broke his vows of silence" to let it be known he wanted You're My Best Friend to be a single. It's also why, I think, Beth was probably the B-side of Detroit Rock City.
    I was just listening to a night at the Opera, and I decided of my all-time favorite Queen song is "Seaside rendezvous ".

    Bless old Fred, he was a true original . He never forgot what Lata Mangeshkar meant to him. Even after he joined the glam rock hard rock band

  15. #15
    This all sounds both simple & complex at the same time. I feel sad that 2 musicians that have made my ears & heart so happy for decades are less than happy themselves.
    Sleeping at home is killing the hotel business!

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    Quote Originally Posted by wilcox660 View Post
    This all sounds both simple & complex at the same time. I feel sad that 2 musicians that have made my ears & heart so happy for decades are less than happy themselves.
    " feelings nothing more than feelings".

    Actually, one of the most profound things I have read about music creation and feelings was from Mike Longo's, dizzy Gillespie's piano player and music director for many many decades . Mike said

    " you don't get music from feelings; you get feelings from Music ".

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    I'm here for the moosic NogbadTheBad's Avatar
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    Sad to see, but it's a bit of a nonsense for Belew to insist they can't play his stuff when he's performing Crimson material and is still heavily featuring Crimson material himself. Anyone can perform anyone's material live. While Jakko's voice isn't ideal for Adrian's songs there's nothing wrong with new arrangements. Would be interesting hear any conversations that went down at the recent TOAPP Camp Belew did with Tony & Pat regarding them being 'sidemen'.
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    Parrots Ripped My Flesh Dave (in MA)'s Avatar
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    The King Crimson Facebook group (unofficial, IIRC) has requested that people refrain from talking about the topic.
    If past "requests" are any guide, failure to comply will result in getting nuked from the group.

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    I'm here for the moosic NogbadTheBad's Avatar
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    Then he really shouldn't have posted it to DGM Live should he?
    Ian

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    Gordon Haskell - "You've got to keep the groove in your head and play a load of bollocks instead"
    I blame Wynton, what was the question?
    There are only 10 types of people in the World, those who understand binary and those that don't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave (in MA) View Post
    The King Crimson Facebook group (unofficial, IIRC) has requested that people refrain from talking about the topic.
    If past "requests" are any guide, failure to comply will result in getting nuked from the group.
    Ha ---- those might be the most pathetic, craven and servile group of mods in cyberspace .

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by N_Singh View Post
    Legally, the only thing that forms the basis of a copyright of any song the melody itself and the lyrics. Not the arrangement, not the backing chords, not the comping, not the actual title ( which is why a horrible corporate punk rock band could actually have a hit song called "Boulevard of broken dreams". )
    And yet, Matthew Fisher was granted a co-songwriting credit and 40% of the royalties after he sued Gary Brooker and Keith Reid, in regards to A Whiter Shade Of Pale. Reid and Brooker wrote the melody and words, but Fisher's organ part was deemed a significantly important part of the song.

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    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baribrotzer View Post
    I have heard...that Robert does not get along with Martha Belew at all. That they have very different cultural touchstones, more detailed mention of which would violate the PE Terms of Service (that is a hint)...
    I guess it's best not to trumpet it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    I guess it's best not to trumpet it.
    Ah, I'm betting it's more of a Jonathan Cain groove thang.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    Ah, I'm betting it's more of a Jonathan Cain groove thang.
    Wait, Jonathan Cain grooves ?

    " why yes sir he does indeed I believe he is part of the new Maggot brain period piece touring band put together by Mr. Clinton "

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    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by N_Singh View Post
    Ha ---- those might be the most pathetic, craven and servile group of mods in cyberspace .
    Yeah, I remember them freaking because someone posted a KC album cover on the group.

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