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Thread: Marillion

  1. #76
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Wasn't one of the members of Kiss supposed to be from outer space or something?

  2. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by llanwydd View Post
    Just heard Marillion for the first time. Usually when I post a thread about a band I have just heard, it is positive, but I can't think of anything good to say about Script for a Jester's Tear. My very first thought was that the singer was doing a lame impression of Peter Gabriel. My next thought was that the whole band was doing a lame impression of early Genesis. I have never heard such a shameless ripoff. I understand it was their first album. I hope they got better after that.
    I’ve been listening to my Marillion albums again and, in my opinion, they don’t hold up. A lot of people seem to hold them in high regard still but I maintain that they’re clinging to feelings of nostalgia. They were fine for their day and got me through some dark (musical) times, but compared to the 70s acts they were trying to emulate, they fall short. I actually like them the more they sound like Genesis (i.e.: Script and Fugazi) as beyond that, they drift into more of an AOR sound. Misplaced Childhood is held up as a “classic” and I have just never connected with it. Maybe I just get really tired of Fish’s monotonous “I drink because I’m depressed about the women I’ve wronged, and the women who have wronged me” lyrical content. At least he had some character, unlike Hogarth’s pitch-perfect yet bland voice. I jumped ship when he joined, seeing nothing worth pursuing left in the band.
    Confirmed Bachelors: the dramedy hit of 1883...

  3. #78
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    In fact, I think that frustration that was led, in part, to Steve Hackett's accident that forced them to postpone the UK leg of The Lamb... tour. He was at an after show party, following a Sensational Alex Harvey Band gig, and he over heard someon saying that "The band would be nothing without Alex", and that upset him because people were saying the same stuff about Gabriel and Genesis, and in a fit of rage, broke a wineglass in his hand, which required him to get stitches, the upshot being he couldn't play guitar for a few weeks.

    I think the "contributing musically" thing was also why he started playing flute and oboe, because he wanted to be able to do something during the instrumental sections, particularly the sort of acoustic oriented things. Tony wouldn't let him anywhere near the keyboards (the only other instrument Peter knew how to play), so Pete had to resort to playing percussion and woodwinds to be able to make his mark at that side of the band's music.

    By contrast, I think Gabriel's trip was more informed by acting out the songs in concert. He was typically portraying characters from the song (like the old man in The Musical Box, or the Slipperman, or whatever). Maybe the connection between "Britannia" and the lyrics of Dancing With The Moonlit Knight seem vague or abstract at best, but I think in his mind, the costumes related to the music in some way.
    1- Never heard the SAHB thing (what a mismatch too), but the parallel sounds sooooo NME-derived bullshit
    That bloody publication did more damage than good, especially compared to MM and Sounds.

    2- not surprised Tony wouldn't let him close to his stuff... they were still arguing about him breaking his ruler in the 5th grade

    3- Moonlit Knight's lyrics aren't vague at all: it sets the whole concept of the SEBTP album: the UK decadence or its fall from "greatness". I've always wondered WTF were doing Firth (establishment looking at the past, maybe) and MFM (deception, maybe) in the general storyline. However, yeah, that Britannia outfit was always difficult to grasp, though it was certainly the most visually arresting, outside the bizarre bulbous rubber thing (but that one was plainly evident/justified)
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  4. #79
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    He was at an after show party, following a Sensational Alex Harvey Band gig, and he over heard someon saying that "The band would be nothing without Alex",
    No, they would have been Tear Gas.


    The difference being, once Peter stopped wearing the costumes, I believe he's resisted all temptation to put them back on. I don't think he even wore them on the Six Of The Best concert (though I recall reading that he was brought onstage in a coffin).
    He wore the Old Man mask, the Flower, Rael, and had the fluorescent rod prop at the Milton Keynes reunion. Possibly more I'm not recalling at the moment. However, the originals were long lost, and new ones had to be made.

  5. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    - Never heard the SAHB thing (what a mismatch too)
    ,

    Mismatch for what?
    but the parallel sounds sooooo NME-derived bullshit
    That bloody publication did more damage than good, especially compared to MM and Sounds.
    [/QUOTE]

    Well, Hackett told the story himself in one of the books that was written back in the 80's, I forget if it even had a title, but the entire book consisted of multi-paragraph quotes from each band member, explaining the band's career up to the circa-84, as that was around the time the book was written/published. Most of what I know about the band came from reading that book.


    2- not surprised Tony wouldn't let him close to his stuff... they were still arguing about him breaking his ruler in the 5th grade
    Tony apparently threw a shit fit one day in the studio because Peter had done a keyboard overdub the night before. Peter preferred making the rest of the band go away while he was doing his vocal overdubs, and during one such session, he had a brainstorm for an idea for, I think it was I Know What I Like, so he did the keyboard overdub himself.

    3- Moonlit Knight's lyrics aren't vague at all: it sets the whole concept of the SEBTP album: the UK decadence or its fall from "greatness". I've always wondered WTF were doing Firth (establishment looking at the past, maybe) and MFM (deception, maybe) in the general storyline. However, yeah, that Britannia outfit was always difficult to grasp,though it was certainly the most visually arresting, outside the bizarre bulbous rubber thing (but that one was plainly evident/justified)
    Well, yeah, that was my point. It was during that song that he wore the "Britannia" outfit, and the actual connection between the costume and the song might seem a bit obscure, at least for the American listener who made doesn't get all the allusions present in the lyrics.

    He wore the Old Man mask, the Flower, Rael, and had the fluorescent rod prop at the Milton Keynes reunion. Possibly more I'm not recalling at the moment. However, the originals were long lost, and new ones had to be made.
    Well, it would probably not have been hard to replace the Rael costume, given that it consisted entirely of jeans and a leather jacket. But yes, now that you mention it, I do remember seeing photos of him in the Old Man mask, and holding up the fluorescent tube (which as I recall, in the picture I remember seeing, looked like a light saber).

    At any rate, I think what I was remembering hearing was that Peter didn't wear any makeup for the performance, it was just the costumes and masks, ie no grease paint, as he sometimes wore during the Foxtrot/Selling England/Lamb era.

  6. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    Wasn't one of the members of Kiss supposed to be from outer space or something?
    Yes, Ace Frehley was supposedly from a planet called Jendell. His difficulty remaining vertical while walking or performing (in reality probably caused by excessive drinking) was explained, officially, as him having trouble adjusting to Earth's higher gravity, or something like that. Hey, you try walking in platforms! I've done it, it's not easy!

    Gene was the Demon, I guess a reflection of his love for horror movies, comic books, etc.

    Paul Stanley was the Starchild, the ultimate glam rock god

    And Peter Criss was the Catman, reputedly because he felt like he had nine lives, growing up in the mean streets of Brooklyn.

    I haven't looked at any of my Kiss propaganda...er, I mean, memorabilia in years, and I still know all that dren off the top of my head, even the name of Ace's "home planet".

  7. #82
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Progbear View Post
    I’ve been listening to my Marillion albums again and, in my opinion, they don’t hold up. A lot of people seem to hold them in high regard still but I maintain that they’re clinging to feelings of nostalgia. Misplaced Childhood is held up as a “classic” and I have just never connected with it.
    Wait, which is it, I'm clinging to feelings of nostalgia, or you never connected with them? If there are any albums you like from the early 80s or earlier should we chalk it up to nostalgia?

  8. #83
    Casanova TCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    Yes, Ace Frehley was supposedly from a planet called Jendell. His difficulty remaining vertical while walking or performing (in reality probably caused by excessive drinking) was explained, officially, as him having trouble adjusting to Earth's higher gravity, or something like that. Hey, you try walking in platforms! I've done it, it's not easy!

    Gene was the Demon, I guess a reflection of his love for horror movies, comic books, etc.

    Paul Stanley was the Starchild, the ultimate glam rock god

    And Peter Criss was the Catman, reputedly because he felt like he had nine lives, growing up in the mean streets of Brooklyn.

    I haven't looked at any of my Kiss propaganda...er, I mean, memorabilia in years, and I still know all that dren off the top of my head, even the name of Ace's "home planet".
    A "backflash" here too!.
    Last edited by TCC; 08-09-2017 at 10:38 PM.

  9. #84
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    Mismatch for what?

    Tony apparently threw a shit fit one day in the studio because Peter had done a keyboard overdub the night before. Peter preferred making the rest of the band go away while he was doing his vocal overdubs, and during one such session, he had a brainstorm for an idea for, I think it was I Know What I Like, so he did the keyboard overdub himself.

    Well, yeah, that was my point. It was during that song that he wore the "Britannia" outfit, and the actual connection between the costume and the song might seem a bit obscure, at least for the American listener who made doesn't get all the allusions present in the lyrics.
    1- pairing Genesis and SAHB sounds like a total mismatch
    2- I'm one that doesn't like much Banks persona, but in this case, The Gabe doing this kind of stuff behind the band's back, that's kind of petty and distasteful
    3- TBH, I didn't find out about that Britannia stage outfit worn during Moonlit Knight until the 90's (don't remember a picture in Armando Gallo's successive editions of Genesis books), and I had to do a research about what it meant.
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  10. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    Script has some very shaky playing (the lumbering tempo on 'Garden Party' makes me wince every single time) and some overbearing moments here and there, but it was a brave statement. Fugazi is the 'difficult second album' if ever there was one; 'Assassing', 'Incubus' and the title track are all significant advances on the debut but the rest does nothing for me at all and never has. Misplaced Childhood and Clutching At Straws are classic albums, the rough edges are gone and the writing is far superior. The latter very quickly became my favourite of the Fish albums.

    I think with the Hogarth albums, Seasons End (save a couple of 'big hair' tracks), Brave and Afraid Of Sunlight remain their best, the latter being their peak with Hogarth IMHO. Holidays In Eden has its moments but the more 'pop' material/production has dated. I don't play the ones which immediately followed very much if at all anymore, but still like Marbles and (surprisingly) Somewhere Else. Quite like the song-cycle Essence but only a couple of tracks on The Hard Shoulder hold up, too many studio doodles IMHO. Sounds That Can't Be Made has yet to grab me. I do think a 'meandering' quality crept in when they went independent.
    I've been wanting to throw "Garden Party" into ProTools and edit the silence on the verses to a click track I too think Brave & Afraid Of Sunlight are their best but lots of good stuff elsewhere too. Still a fav. Still on auto buy.

  11. #86
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    don't remember a picture in Armando Gallo's successive editions of Genesis books), and I had to do a research about what it meant.
    I don't have the book with me at work, but I'm pretty sure there's an awesome pic of Gabriel as Britannia in the IKWIL book. For me, probably his most impressive costume.

  12. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by mozo-pg View Post
    For me, Brave is the most progressive album Marillion released. I love the atmosphere, the searing guitar, the melodies, and Hogarth's voice. It carries a lot of emotional energy and a story. Of course, your mileage varies.
    I was looking for searing guitar myself but never found much of it on this album. My favorite song from this period isn't even on the album (marouatte jam)

    I consider Brave a failed experiment on all counts (with the live version on Made Again being slightly better. I do respect the attempt and I think it was a stepping off point for the performances that came later.) But yes, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

  13. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Progbear View Post
    I’ve been listening to my Marillion albums again and, in my opinion, they don’t hold up. A lot of people seem to hold them in high regard still but I maintain that they’re clinging to feelings of nostalgia. They were fine for their day and got me through some dark (musical) times, but compared to the 70s acts they were trying to emulate, they fall short. I actually like them the more they sound like Genesis (i.e.: Script and Fugazi) as beyond that, they drift into more of an AOR sound. Misplaced Childhood is held up as a “classic” and I have just never connected with it. Maybe I just get really tired of Fish’s monotonous “I drink because I’m depressed about the women I’ve wronged, and the women who have wronged me” lyrical content. At least he had some character, unlike Hogarth’s pitch-perfect yet bland voice. I jumped ship when he joined, seeing nothing worth pursuing left in the band.

    That stuff more than holds up for me. But then I'd take Fish-Marillion over Gabriel-Genesis any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

  14. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    1- pairing Genesis and SAHB sounds like a total mismatch
    I'm sorry, I still don't understand what you're talking about. Pairing them for what?
    2- I'm one that doesn't like much Banks persona, but in this case, The Gabe doing this kind of stuff behind the band's back, that's kind of petty and distasteful
    Well, what would you have him do? Wait until the next day, by which time he's probably forgotten the idea he wanted to put on the track? That's how that kind of thing works, you have to put down on tape right away, or you'll forget it. And since Tony wasn't around at the time, Peter went did the overdub himself.


    3- TBH, I didn't find out about that Britannia stage outfit worn during Moonlit Knight until the 90's (don't remember a picture in Armando Gallo's successive editions of Genesis books), and I had to do a research about what it meant.
    I think I learned of it from seeing a clip from the Shepperton film that was used in whichever documentary, so for me, probably somewhere circa 86-92.

  15. #90
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ytserush View Post
    I was looking for searing guitar myself but never found much of it on this album. My favorite song from this period isn't even on the album (marouatte jam)

    I consider Brave a failed experiment on all counts (with the live version on Made Again being slightly better. I do respect the attempt and I think it was a stepping off point for the performances that came later.) But yes, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
    Yes, we all agree to disagree with you!

  16. #91
    Member since March 2004 mozo-pg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    Yes, we all agree to disagree with you!

  17. #92
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    I'm sorry, I still don't understand what you're talking about. Pairing them for what?
    maybe I misread your post... I thought that SAHB opened for Genesis or the other way around... Pairing the two in one evening sounds like a terrible faute de goût. (as in, not the same public)

    As for The Gabe overdubbing the studio tapes, you write down your idea or warn by phone and ask for permission.
    This sounds like a fait accompli.
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  18. #93
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    No, Chris was merely stating that Hackett overheard someone make the offending comment re SAHB at a party, and was angered because Genesis was being given the same idiotic view from the media. That it was SAHB was irrelevant. It could have been any band.

  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by ytserush View Post
    But then I'd take Fish-Marillion over Gabriel-Genesis any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
    I think it's safe to say that you are in the minority. But don't feel bad. Every random sample has its outliers.
    I'm holding out for the Wilson-mixed 5.1 super-duper walletbuster special anniversary extra adjectives edition.

  20. #95
    I don't think Marillion ever reached the heights of Suppers Ready but everything else is at least comparable! Marillion hit the ground running whilst it took Genesis four album to put out some real quality!

  21. #96
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    Fish-era Marillion is my favorite band ever. Unfortunately, for me, I became aware of Marillion after seeing a review of "The Thieving Magpie" in a local Long Island music weekly. The review attracted my attention, as did the CD itself. I quickly discovered the rest of the albums to that point ("Clutching at Straws" is my all-time favorite album), and was so anxious to hear the next CD ("Season's End). While I knew Fish had departed, I expected the vocalist to be similar. I was gutted when I heard SE for the first time. I have since grown to like it very much.

    While I may be in the minority, it was "Afraid of Sunlight" that took Marillion off my auto-buy list. I absolutely loved "Brave" but it wasn't until years later that I came to appreciate some of the songs off AoS.

    "This Strange Engine" was a follow-up I did like, especially the title track. But the band lost me during the "Radiation" - "Anoraknophobia" years. I did enjoy "Marbles" (the 2CD version due to "Ocean Cloud") but "Somewhere Else" and "Happiness Is the Road" just lost me.

    "Sounds That Can't Be Made" and "F.E.A.R" are quality CDs that I have listened to more than once.

    That's my Marillion story, and I'm sticking to it!
    "It's such a fine line between stupid and... clever" -- David St. Hubbins & Derek Smalls, Spinal Tap

  22. #97
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    ^ I'm sure you weren't the only one who expected Fish's replacement to sound something like Fish, but I can't help thinking if they'd gone in that direction the band would have called it quits long ago. Or they might just be another Arena or something. It's interesting to think what their music would have become if they'd hired a vocalist who didn't do much more than just replace Fish on vocals, and didn't also become the lyricist and sort of help the band go in the direction they all chose. IMO they're lucky they got someone who replaced Fish admirably AND they got along with so well.

  23. #98
    I was there when the Fish's era 12"s and albums were issued; they appealed to me because UK styled sympho prog was non-existent at the time and these recordings, being among the best example of the neo scene, got quite an overplay. However, I don't feel that they held the test of time (contrary to some of their 70s preceders) and I only feel the rare need to relisten just out of pure nostalgia. "Fugazi" and "Clutching at Straws" sound their best to my ears.

    I never got into the Hogarth phase of theirs and jumped fish after "Straws".
    Macht das ohr auf!

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  24. #99
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    just been to see the band live (#15 in 30yrs) – here are my observations (taken from my facebook wall):

    • this was their most uncompromising set for a long time. they performed for a good two hours and there were only three songs that i had previously heard in a live setting.

    • nothing from the so-called FiSH era again which, with all due respect, is representatively good. kayleigh can now happily retire in belsize park.

    • they performed their entire new album right at the beginning which is also good. it shows that there is real confidence within the band in their new material. i was slightly critical of “F E A R” but it has really grown on me.

    • steve rothery is beginning to look like a monk for all of his sizable frame, his corona of remnant hair and benign smiles throughout. but then “even richard dawkins thinks that rothery is god”. his guitar soared and stabbed magnificently.

    • although they're all getting a bit long in the tooth there is obviously a fountain of youth installed backstage. steve hogarth was stellar throughout and created nothing less than magic as a mediator between both the audience and his four bandmates.

    • one of those songs that i had not heard live previously was the seldom-played and utterly gut-wrenching “beyond you” which h once admitted to not ever being able to perform because he is too attached to it emotionally. i am glad that he revised his opinion. musically it emphasises MARiLLiON’s strong hereditary links to TALK TALK with a lovely pastiche to phil spector’s sonic techniques to boot. thematically it absolutely shatters. h was in pieces after that one.

    • i have exactly zero interest in ever attending any of their high-profile fan conventions. too much filter bubble, too much self congratulation. a regular tour gig with a new album to bring to life and new material to get across is the best experience one can have with them.

    • finally this second incarnation of MARiLLiON are beginning to mean something and they are receiving some respect. while their music has always been compelling topically it was often viewed as a bit trivial and introspective. “F E A R” is a strong statement full of pointed and uncomfortable social and political observations. it is nothing less than relevant and so are they.

    • in continuation of the above i'll take liberty to quote myself from my album review last year: go see them live while you and they still can.

  25. #100
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    ^'Beyond You' is a sleeper of a track. I now think it's one of their finest achievements yet its brilliance is not immediately apparent on an album with so many other highlights. That big emotional swell in the middle is a band at the peak of their powers. The decision to mix it a la Phil Spector was inspired, especially for 60s pop junkies like me.

    There was that famous Q Magazine review of AOS where the writer proclaimed if anyone else had put that album out, it would have been hailed as a classic. Sad. I think the album was probably their all-time peak.

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