AAJ Review: King Crimson At Salle Wilfrid-Pelletier / Massey Hall

[jkelman]

My review of my final night at Le Festival International de Jazz de Montréal 2017, the first of two evenings with King Crimson, along with a review of the group's night, two days later, at Massey Hall in Toronto, today at All About Jazz. As always, two mind-boggling performances with material new to North America, and each evening with a substantially different set list and order.

Read review here…

Photo to courtesy of DGMLive.com

[battema]

Lovely review as ever, John

[calyx]

A non-KC-related note: I'm pretty sure the "adapt, adopt, improve" line by John Cleese is from a Monty Python sketch where Cleese plays a lingerie shop owner facing a particularly pitiful attempt at a robbery from Eric Idle - NOT from "Fawlty Towers" unless it was recycled there.

[jkelman]

A non-KC-related note: I'm pretty sure the "adapt, adopt, improve" line by John Cleese is from a Monty Python sketch where Cleese plays a lingerie shop owner facing a particularly pitiful attempt at a robbery from Eric Idle - NOT from "Fawlty Towers" unless it was recycled there.

Thanks. I'll look it up. It's not a huge biggie ... just wanted a little levity after I lambasted noisy crowds and eedjits who still picked up their cameras throughout the show (and if any of you are one of them, well, sorry...but only kinda; it's not as if it wasn't made crystal clear, right? ).

I'm out this aft, will check later on and correct if necessary. Meanwhile, thanks for being my ever-faithful fact-checker

And thanks, battema, for the kind words....I never fish for 'em, but they are, of course, always appreciated.

[mozo-pg]

John, I was at the Montreal show, and splurged on 3rd row seats. What an incredible treat. You review is simply outstanding and so informative. I was able to recount my own experiences with your crystal clear account of the evening. I'm so impressed!

[Facelift]

[URL="https://www.allaboutjazz.com/king-crimson-at-salle-wilfrid-pelletier-and-massey-hall-king-crimson-by-john-kelman.php"]

My review of my final night at Le Festival International de Jazz de Montréal 2017, the first of two evenings with King Crimson, along with a review of the group's night, two days later, at Massey Hall in Toronto, today at All About Jazz. As always, two mind-boggling performances with material new to North America, and each evening with a substantially different set list and order.

Nice review - until you decided to spend almost an entire page of it whining about people who were clandestinely recording.

Unless there is recording equipment that is obstructing your view or infringing on your physical space, what some people do in response to unreasonable requests is really up to them, not you. Frankly, it's none of your business.

[jamesmanzi]

Nice review - until you decided to spend almost an entire page of it whining about people who were clandestinely recording.

Unless there is recording equipment that is obstructing your view or infringing on your physical space, what some people do in response to unreasonable requests is really up to them, not you. Frankly, it's none of your business.

Bullshit. Let's not have this argument again. If someone says "don't record me" and you record them, you're an asshole. If someone says "don't take my picture" and you take their picture, you're an asshole. If you buy a concert ticket that says "no photography. no recording devices" right there on it and you do one or both, you're an asshole. There's no gray area here.

[mozo-pg]

Nice review - until you decided to spend almost an entire page of it whining about people who were clandestinely recording.

Unless there is recording equipment that is obstructing your view or infringing on your physical space, what some people do in response to unreasonable requests is really up to them, not you. Frankly, it's none of your business.

Trolling again. No wonder you were kicked off PE in the past. I thought John's comment were more than reasonable.

[boilk]

what some people do in response to unreasonable requests is really up to them, not you. Frankly, it's none of your business.

Your comments were fair, if harsh, up until 'unreasonable requests'. It's not up to you, or I, to decide on what an artist deems to be very reasonable.

neil

[Facelift]

Your comments were fair, if harsh, up until 'unreasonable requests'. It's not up to you, or I, to decide on what an artist deems to be very reasonable.

neil

I get your point, but the whole reason for using that word was to apply an objective standard. Obviously Robert Fripp subjectively believes it to be reasonable. But is it actually reasonable, according to the concert-going standards of this day and age? No - of course not. And that's the main reason why anybody ignoring Fripp's request is most certainly NOT an asshole, unless whatever they are doing causes them to obstruct/invade the sightlines or physical space of people around them.

[Facelift]

Trolling again. No wonder you were kicked off PE in the past. I thought John's comment were more than reasonable.

I have not been kicked off PE in the past.

And you think it's reasonable - not a psychosis - to devote an entire page of text of a concert review to people taking I-phone pictures? It's 2017 - this is what people do at concerts. You deal with it and move on with life.

[boilk]

On a semi-related note, a friend-of-a-friend of mine, got booted out of a Steven Wilson show a few years back, for trying to video a part of a song. His major complaint was that he noticed no signs that said that recording was not allowed. Whether or not he was being an asshole, I found his reasoning ludicrous, as it was clearly posted on signs all over the fucking place, that recording was not allowed. Ignoring a request, or stipulation, might seem reasonable to some, but there could be consequences.

neil

[calyx]

It's 2017 - this is what people do at concerts. You deal with it and move on with life.

That's one approach.
Another approach is to do what Fripp does, and however unpleasant the way that policy is enforced can be at times, utimately I'm very grateful that it is, because there is a solemnity to KC concerts that is sorely missing from performances where dozens of people suddenly take out their phones/cameras and start filming.

I'm not bothered by what I don't see (people secretly taping the shows without anybody noticing), although I understand why Fripp disagrees, but all this filming really spoils the concert experience for me, and I can't adopt your viewpoint where you don't want to even TRY to do something about it.

[jamesmanzi]

I get your point, but the whole reason for using that word was to apply an objective standard. Obviously Robert Fripp subjectively believes it to be reasonable. But is it actually reasonable, according to the concert-going standards of this day and age? No - of course not. And that's the main reason why anybody ignoring Fripp's request is most certainly NOT an asshole, unless whatever they are doing causes them to obstruct/invade the sightlines or physical space of people around them.

Oh man, I love how Fripp's opinion is subjective and your opinion is objective. Awesome reasoning.

Fripp's opinion of reasonable is subjective. Your opinion of reasonable is subjective.

The band requests no photos or videos. This is objective fact.

That's how words work. They don't do whatever you want them to do.

[jkelman]

John, I was at the Montreal show, and splurged on 3rd row seats. What an incredible treat. You review is simply outstanding and so informative. I was able to recount my own experiences with your crystal clear account of the evening. I'm so impressed!

Glad you were there....and, as ever, thanks for the kind words about th and writing. It was a bit gruelingq on this poor CFS-addled body, but totally worth the relentless fatigue I knew would be the price to pay

Cheers!

[NogbadTheBad]

Let's not turn another thread into a pointless Facey argument, this ground is well trodden.

[jkelman]

Nice review - until you decided to spend almost an entire page of it whining about people who were clandestinely recording.

Unless there is recording equipment that is obstructing your view or infringing on your physical space, what some people do in response to unreasonable requests is really up to them, not you. Frankly, it's none of your business.

As a reviewer who was particularly bothered by this at both shows, it's well within my right to mention it. And yes, it WAS infringing on my enjoyment, as I had a guy texting nearby the entire show, while others' phones were getting in the way of me view on too many occasions no to be mentioned.

You and I have butted heads about this before. Let's not do it again. Given the length of the article...and now fucking noisy the Toronto audience was...that's part of my job, to report, isn't it?

You'll not I spent no particular time on this subject in either my Warfield 2014 or Montreal 2015 reviews. So, consider this: if I didn't before I must have had a good reason to mention it this time.

And it's as much my business to report about it as it is yours to take me to task for it. You and I have a fundamental disagreement. AFAIC, if artists make it as crystal clear as Fripp & co do, it is nothing short of disrespect for the audience to disregard. I know you don't agree. I don't care. When it comes to this particular subject, for me, the artists wishes always trump those who feel the need to make lo-if recordings when a great live release (three already, surely more to come) are available.

Please don't reply. There's no point. But since you decided to take me to task, I feel completely justified in explaining my position. But I've nothing more, clearly, to say on the subject. If you do, perhaps you can start your or thread instead. I'd rather this one be about what was, despite the eedjits, two thoroughly extraordinary evenings.

[jkelman]

A non-KC-related note: I'm pretty sure the "adapt, adopt, improve" line by John Cleese is from a Monty Python sketch where Cleese plays a lingerie shop owner facing a particularly pitiful attempt at a robbery from Eric Idle - NOT from "Fawlty Towers" unless it was recycled there.

Fixed!! And thanks again for the catch, my occasional editor-in-chief

[Facelift]

Oh man, I love how Fripp's opinion is subjective and your opinion is objective. Awesome reasoning.

Fripp's opinion of reasonable is subjective. Your opinion of reasonable is subjective.

The band requests no photos or videos. This is objective fact.

That's how words work. They don't do whatever you want them to do.

Fripp's opinion of reasonableness is his own, and mine is mine own - both are subjective. However, whenever proscriptions of behavior are concerned, whether it be here or in a law or some other regulation, objective reasonableness of the prohibition is typically considered, based on community standards.

The community of people involved here is the concert-going audience in 2017. Anybody who has ever been to a concert lately would know that standards of reasonableness of concert behavior with regard to this include taking photos and video of the band. That is what is an objective evaluation. Therefore, Fripp's prohibition of photos is a violation of present-day community standards.

[jkelman]

I have not been kicked off PE in the past.

And you think it's reasonable - not a psychosis - to devote an entire page of text of a concert review to people taking I-phone pictures? It's 2017 - this is what people do at concerts. You deal with it and move on with life.

If artists allow recording you'll never hear a peep from me. But after two nights of stellar shows where it was patently clear just how quick people were to ignore artists' expressed wishes?

My final words on the subject: you don't like how I write, what I write or what I choose to criticize at two shows where the band certainly was worthy of zero criticism...just the crowd...then don't read it, ok? Believe me, I won't miss you.

Oh, and just to be clear for those who may be misled by this guy's comments: AAJ paginates automatically, so what constitutes a "page" is determined by algorithm, thus I've NO control over it.

More important is this little factoid: from a WORD COUNT perspective - the one that really matters - I delivered a 5,200-word review, of which just 507 were on the subject you find so offending; that, my non-friend, is less than 10% - hardly anywhere close to the the dominant message that anyone who doesn't suffer from your sense of entitlement would take away from my piece.

So, how's about this? Stay away from me and I'll happily do the same.
Deal?

EDIT: I actually just went back and looked at the piece. Contrary to Facelift, the page on which the offending three paragraphs reside sit alongside two others. Taking a rough visual scan, I'd say those three paragraphs occupy roughly 60% of the page. Hardly "almost" an entire page, unless 60% has suddenly moved up in the world

[Facelift]

As a reviewer who was particularly bothered by this at both shows, it's well within my right to mention it. And yes, it WAS infringing on my enjoyment, as I had a guy texting nearby the entire show, while others' phones were getting in the way of me view on too many occasions no to be mentioned.

You and I have butted heads about this before. Let's not do it again. Given the length of the article...and now fucking noisy the Toronto audience was...that's part of my job, to report, isn't it?

You'll not I spent no particular time on this subject in either my Warfield 2014 or Montreal 2015 reviews. So, consider this: if I didn't before I must have had a good reason to mention it this time.

And it's as much my business to report about it as it is yours to take me to task for it. You and I have a fundamental disagreement. AFAIC, if artists make it as crystal clear as Fripp & co do, it is nothing short of disrespect for the audience to disregard. I know you don't agree. I don't care. When it comes to this particular subject, for me, the artists wishes always trump those who feel the need to make lo-if recordings when a great live release (three already, surely

The intent was not to open up a debate about it. The intent was to observe that a large portion space to an otherwise interesting review was allocated to something that hardly anybody other than yourself will be interested in reading. Such matters would ideally be put at the end of the review.

[Facelift]

Stay away from me and I'll happily do the same.
Deal?

Nope. You post, I post back if I feel like it. That's the deal. I'm not doing it to belittle, slander or troll, but to engage in the free exchange of ideas. You posted your own review in here, which everybody who cares already knew where to find. So, that means you want it discussed in here. Well, I'm discussing.

[Facelift]

That is the biggest load of crap you've said yet. Every artist - and Fripp is hardly the only one - has the right to what gets permanently documented of the

You just don't get it, do you? Show me where I said that Fripp didn't have the right to ask for what he's asking for. Of course he has a right. Just like the angry lunatic who sits on his porch waiting for kids to walk by and graze a blade of the grass on his lawn has a right to yell at them to stay off it.

But that behavior is not considered REASONABLE by community standards, and Fripp's likewise is not in 2017. It violates community standards of acceptable concert behavior, as I've already proven.

But I'm not saying that Fripp doesn't have the right to do what he's doing. He does - I'm just saying that it ignoring it is no big deal. As long as pictures are being taken or video recorded that is not blocking the view of an adjacent concert-goer, then there is no problem. I've got more important things to worry about than what some old coot with a long history of documented failure at being either reasonable or congenial thinks. I just want to hear him play guitar.

[jkelman]

Folks, I apologize for getting heated with Facelift. This is not the first time, but it's been awhile.

Anyway, I'm not responding to anything further, so how about we get back to the most important thing, which dominated over 90% of the article: the music, the band, the set lists? I hear "Fracture" has crept back into the set.

BLAST!!!

[Facelift]

I hear "Fracture" has crept back into the set.

BLAST!!!

Absolutely right. I didn't go to the Red Bank shows (crazy expensive ticket prices) but Fracture was out there on the interwebs for awhile, and it was worth hearing.