Vulture article on Prog

[Gizmotron]

Well - to add my $0.02 pesos...

This is a gonna be a long post - apologies in advance - I am wordy and long winded when trying to get ideas out...

1) First the personal background - in my opinion, one develops musical taste during our teens - therefore, given my age, I did develop a taste for post-punk/new wave/synth-pop/goth and other related styles

2) However, because I actually started listening to music as a child, I developed a taste for the 70s rock that older kids and family friends were listening to - and that included prog, which I soon preferred above anything else - apart from stuff in no. 1, of course

3) At the same time, my father being a serious classical fan with a classical LP collection that looked immense to my child eyes, well, help me develop a serious classical (including opera) addiction - So I also acquired my own immense collection - last I calculated >4000 classical CDs, plus the LPs...

4) Obviously lots of crossover - Kraftwerk went from prog related, to the post-punk side. I am never sure whether to classify "The Cars" as new wave or classic rock. I moved Bill Nelson to prog from post-punk, same as Dead Can Dance who is now more prog-related than goth... And it was weird to put the 80s King Crimson albums in the prog side of the shelf - they sounded like they belonged next to the Talking Heads, instead... And the last Bjork album is contemporary classical thru and thru... so on, so forth...

5) So because of my taste I have become in contact with all those musical communities, by gosh, lots weird stuff all around - ignorance and incorrect assumptions all around...

- Post-punk, punk, etc friends called on the "pretentiousness" of prog. Darn gosh! I guess pretentious triple albums are only OK when The Clash (Sandinista) does it! Or, classical pretensions are only OK for Elvis Costello and his ballet called "Il Sogno".... ugh

- One time a classical friend accused me of listening to "boy bands" when he found me listening to Joy Division... REALLY? Is that what you think top 40 pop sounds like? ugh

- To their credit, the prog community is actually a lot more open - but there still plenty that makes you go ugh... One poster commented that Steven Wilson's "Pariah" was gonna be a big radio hit and therefore a money grab... REALLY? poster really has no idea what top 40 radio sounds like these days (as a father of teens, believe me, I know and it doesn't sound like "Pariah" at all)... ugh

Or that poster in the Jean Michel Jarre thread putting in the same bag, when it comes to live performance, David Guetta and JMJ - REALLY? come on... it is fine not to like modern EM (which is mostly EDM) but when JMJ shows up live with 2 more musicians including a live drummer... pls.... ugh

So we all have prejudices and assumptions. But in my mind the trick is to be open, actually listen and learn about the style... Yes, punk is stylistically simple, and a thing cannot help to be what it is, BUT those artists did evolve - punk rapidly gave way to post-punk and as early as 1982, we got some great artistic statements - Japan's Tin Drum, for example or even Public Image Ltd, for chrissake! - that Bill Laswell produced album was a marvel.

I could go on, citing examples of both wonderful and bad prog, not to mention classical compositions that definitely are not sophisticated artistic statements... but I am meandering... I will stop now and try to get to my point...

Which is, that while punk *initially* had the anti-chops, anti-art stance, it was actually a very arty movement, and they evolved into lots of non-commercial, sophisticated forms... and that the current state of things has to do more with corporate consolidation and the evolution of the music business than any master plan that started in 76 with the Sex Pistols.

That consolidation coincides with the advent of the digital revolution - we got one more relatively organic movement in Grunge (which never clicked with me - you could say I dislike it by purely musical and taste reasons), but after that I do believe it is the state of the business that forced us into the current state of affairs...

We are in an era of corporate producers again (at least on the pop/top 40 side) pushing artists to record songs from corporate songwriters - only now is Doctor Luke and Max Martin instead of Phil Spector and Dozier/Holland... I mean, even songwriters like Tay-Tay are forced to add some Max Martin sheen on corporate orders....

Why? Because they (record companies) are now risk adverse - and the environment being so hostile that no music is really bought/sold these days... well, while I disapprove immensely of the music they put out, it makes sense given a goal of selling tons of records from a single release from a single artist... which was the traditional model until digital killed it...

Which killed everything - no genre has suffered more than classical... except for jazz maybe...

Well I am meandering and not sure if my post really contributes to the thread, but it is somehow related and well, wanted to get all that of my chest!

v

As The Bard wrote in MSND, "Well spoke, Puck!"

I especially like this:
"So we all have prejudices and assumptions. But in my mind the trick is to be open, actually listen and learn about the style..."

Almost none of us can exist without having prejudices and assumptions. The best thing we can do is be aware of them and take steps to counter their effect (because their main effect is to rob of us music that we would probably enjoy).

I'd like to hear more from you about why you feel Classical and Jazz have suffered the most because as a fan of both I do of course see how the audience for both has been shrinking but my sense is that pop and rock have suffered much more at the hands of record companies. (Of course, I would certainly agree that "Smooth Jazz" is one of the most shaped/controlled/packaged genres.)

[Baribrotzer]

I'd like to hear more from you about why you feel Classical and Jazz have suffered the most.....

I can say, and it's very simple.

Because they don't yield fast profits. Sure, the good releases stay in print for years, they sell to an older crowd less interested in pirated files, and they can make back many times their outlay. But that doesn't show up on a quarterly balance sheet at all, and almost all modern business lives and dies by the quarterly balance sheet.

[JJ88]

Interesting reading on that topic here:

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/thread...he-u-s.420984/

[Gizmotron]

Thank you, Gents. The low sales tallies are certainly a huge issue.

This general dynamic has been in place for quite some time but I do feel it is getting worse. The vast majority of "music fans" want Fast Food Music whereas the minority (most of us here) want Gourmet Music; we actually see music as a art form/product that is worthy of spending money on.

[mogrooves]

we actually see music as a art form/product that is worthy of spending money on.

...and, more importantly, time and attention.

[Yodelgoat]

...and, more importantly, time and attention.

No, I think money is the most important. Lots of people who get their stuff free and enjoy loads of time talking about how much they love their music. Though they are of little use, as a practical matter. My grown kids seem to have all kinds of music on their devices, yet they seem to never spend their own money on it. I've talked with them over and over about it, but no matter. I am not getting them to spend their own money on music. They need to save up for the latest video game or some stupid tattoo. I am a failure as a dad... I do not let them anywhere near my collection any more, as I have learned its just too much a temptation. The disks just disappear.

I do wind up buying them again if I find something missing though. (Rush, Dream Theater and Zeppelin seem to be the favorites), - I have these weird dreams about Neil Peart showing up at my door, and demanding I show him physical product for all my Rush albums. After I do, he jams with me, playing my 17 piece Vdrum kit, and I play my stick bass. he always refuses to play Tom Sawyer though, But we always depart as friends.

I'm sure no one here is getting their prog music from pirated sources.

[vmartell]

As The Bard wrote in MSND, "Well spoke, Puck!"

I'd like to hear more from you about why you feel Classical and Jazz have suffered the most because as a fan of both I do of course see how the audience for both has been shrinking but my sense is that pop and rock have suffered much more at the hands of record companies. (Of course, I would certainly agree that "Smooth Jazz" is one of the most shaped/controlled/packaged genres.)

True - did not clarify my point of view in an already long post !

They have suffered from the commercial point of view, as an industry - I read that the wonderful recording Abbado made of Bruckner's 9th sold 100 copies. A classical album that sells 1000 is a runaway hit - I am really not sure how the industry keeps going... as for Jazz I don't have the numbers ATM but I know that while the classical market share is around 1%, Jazz is at around 0.03%.. Again, not sure how the industry gets going... Compare these to halcyon days of Columbia Masterworks, DG and Blue Note... sad really...

But the smarter, smaller labels make money on the catalog - which is great ! That is the reason that Hyperion can sell a marvelous hi-res recording of Havergal Brian's First, or that beautiful recording they put out a couple of months ago to celebrate national women's day - 3 piano concertos from women's composers... and what an album! That could not have happened without digital! Hyperion can take risks recording obscure repertoire to differentiate themselves from the DG and Deccas of the world, have no physical distribution costs and yes, make money on the catalog, not on the individual recording...

Although that is great for Hyperion, not sure how the whole industry can survive.... But of course the abuse and victimization record companies have made of some rockers and pop artists is legendary... so yeah, you are right! I was talking from a different point of view.


I will stop - CONTROL YOU POST LENGTH, V

[wilcox660]

I absolutely covfefe peach.

[moecurlythanu]

I absolutely covfefe peach.

Please, no coded posts. There's only a small circle of people who know what that word means.

[Gizmotron]

True - did not clarify my point of view in an already long post !

They have suffered from the commercial point of view, as an industry - I read that the wonderful recording Abbado made of Bruckner's 9th sold 100 copies. A classical album that sells 1000 is a runaway hit - I am really not sure how the industry keeps going... as for Jazz I don't have the numbers ATM but I know that while the classical market share is around 1%, Jazz is at around 0.03%.. Again, not sure how the industry gets going... Compare these to halcyon days of Columbia Masterworks, DG and Blue Note... sad really...

But the smarter, smaller labels make money on the catalog - which is great ! That is the reason that Hyperion can sell a marvelous hi-res recording of Havergal Brian's First, or that beautiful recording they put out a couple of months ago to celebrate national women's day - 3 piano concertos from women's composers... and what an album! That could not have happened without digital! Hyperion can take risks recording obscure repertoire to differentiate themselves from the DG and Deccas of the world, have no physical distribution costs and yes, make money on the catalog, not on the individual recording...

Although that is great for Hyperion, not sure how the whole industry can survive.... But of course the abuse and victimization record companies have made of some rockers and pop artists is legendary... so yeah, you are right! I was talking from a different point of view.


I will stop - CONTROL YOU POST LENGTH, V

Thank you!
It is a bit of a wonder how jazz and classical artists can keep it together. My sister and bro-in-law are pro musicians (classical and jazz respectively) and the way they do it is have a few side careers.

I think one of the unavoidable conclusions is that the majority of people do not see music as something that should be paid for.

[moecurlythanu]

I think one of the unavoidable conclusions is that the majority of people do not see music as something that should be free.

Really??? I certainly wouldn't say that about young people, and they were traditionally the largest market for music.

[Gizmotron]

Really??? I certainly wouldn't say that about young people, and they were traditionally the largest market for music.

Yes, you are correct as far as "tradition." I and all of my friends spent a large percentage of our money on records and concerts in the 1970's.

But while young people are still interested in music and DO spend serious money on concert tickets, they are more reticent to spend money on recorded music.

[wilcox660]

I hear you, Eagle. This is Blue Walrus saying "Thirsty Puppets Of Love."

Please, no coded posts. There's only a small circle of people who know what that word means.

[moecurlythanu]

Yes, you are correct as far as "tradition." I and all of my friends spent a large percentage of our money on records and concerts in the 1970's.

But while young people are still interested in music and DO spend serious money on concert tickets, they are more reticent to spend money on recorded music.

Well, yeah, that's what I was saying.

[moecurlythanu]

I hear you, Eagle. This is Blue Walrus saying "Thirsty Puppets Of Love."

Ach! More West Wing lingo!

[Gizmotron]

Well, yeah, that's what I was saying.

Hey thanks for drawing my attention to my syntax error. I corrected my original post to say:
"I think one of the unavoidable conclusions is that the majority of people do not see music as something that should be paid for." And of course, I am referring to young people nowadays.

[moecurlythanu]

Hey thanks for drawing my attention to my syntax error. I corrected my original post to say:
"I think one of the unavoidable conclusions is that the majority of people do not see music as something that should be paid for." And of course, I am referring to young people nowadays.

Actually, I thought you were making the point I took issue with, not just having left out a word.

[Gizmotron]

Actually, I thought you were making the point I took issue with, not just having left out a word.

"I got all this stuff twirling around in my head." Herman Cain

Like quite a few of us here, I am passionate about music, I always pay for my music, and I sometimes write a bit too quickly and proof-read too rarely!

[vmartell]

Thank you!
It is a bit of a wonder how jazz and classical artists can keep it together. My sister and bro-in-law are pro musicians (classical and jazz respectively) and the way they do it is have a few side careers.

I think one of the unavoidable conclusions is that the majority of people do not see music as something that should be paid for.

Oh G*d - Indeed!

The one time I have been flamed the most was when I was posting at an industrial music forum - mostly younglings, you know...

So people started complaining about price of recordings (CDs, at the time) - so I had the temerity to say: "Well, if you feel that $11-$19 for a CD is too expensive, I am sorry, you cannot afford to consume music that way - instead, listen to radio or stream, but do not steal from the artist"

Was I flamed!

But true - they don't hesitate to spend $100 on a cap, $200 on kicks etc... but music does not deserve the same respect - I walk the talk -$20 kicks, crappy car, I own no designer clothes at all, but have a monster music collection (physical and hi-res files - all bought) that I listen on good equipment. AND WORTH IT!