Elton John Laments the loss of real music talent

[GuitarGeek]

^^ Perfect example would be Rick Derringer. He's on a surprising amount of songs by other artists.

Well, I'm not talking about playing on songs by "artists", ie singers or other solo performers, like Edgar Winter or Cyndi Lauper. I'm talking about playing on a record by a band who, at least in theory, has a member who fills that role. I know there's a handful of Kiss songs that Derringer played on, but off hand, I don't know of other such examples where a producer or whomever called him when somebody was either drawing a blank or otherwise incapacitated (Bob Kulick talks about one of the Kiss sessions he played on, where he took a break, walked into the studio lounge and found Ace, apparently fully sloshed, sprawled out on a sofa. Ace looks up at him and says, "How'm I playing, Curly?!" and Bob replies, "Best you ever sounded, Ace!").

[Tangram]

Elton was the first "serious" artist I got into. I'll always have a soft spot for his 70s music. As was mentioned a few posts above, he had a fantastic band. I'd even rate Dee Murray as one of the great bassists in rock music. Oddly, I've never seen Elton live. It's on my bucketlist and hopefully I'll see him before he kicks his over ;-)

Agree completely about Dee Murray. Never mentioned as a great bassist but he could really play. I have seem him many times and while his voice is deeper and a bit tattered at times (he is 70), he can still bring it and his playing is better than ever. For those how think his talent died after the 70's, should check out his albums from this century. There is plenty of very good material there. They all have some light weight material on it (usually the song that hits the airwaves), but he always has a few gems on the album too.

Elton has done a ton for emerging artists. His show spotlights tunes that he is listening to at the moment and most of them are unknown to the masses.

Back to the original post, he is right that there are many who are popular and are more show than substance. That has been around as many have pointed out since the 60's. I think the balance has changed. Say what you will about his costumes, he could always write , sing and play.

[ronmac]

Well, I'm not talking about playing on songs by "artists", ie singers or other solo performers, like Edgar Winter or Cyndi Lauper. I'm talking about playing on a record by a band who, at least in theory, has a member who fills that role. I know there's a handful of Kiss songs that Derringer played on, but off hand, I don't know of other such examples where a producer or whomever called him when somebody was either drawing a blank or otherwise incapacitated (Bob Kulick talks about one of the Kiss sessions he played on, where he took a break, walked into the studio lounge and found Ace, apparently fully sloshed, sprawled out on a sofa. Ace looks up at him and says, "How'm I playing, Curly?!" and Bob replies, "Best you ever sounded, Ace!").

Well, you mentioned Alice Cooper and Rick played the lead on "Under My Wheels,' one of his biggest songs.

[Sturgeon's Lawyer]

Yes, and Hunter-Wagner ghosted a lot of the guitar on Billion Dollar Babies.

[ThomasKDye]

Agree completely about Dee Murray. Never mentioned as a great bassist but he could really play. I have seem him many times and while his voice is deeper and a bit tattered at times (he is 70), he can still bring it and his playing is better than ever.

I'm confused. Wikipedia says he died in 1992.

[Baribrotzer]

I'm confused. Wikipedia says he died in 1992.

I was confused a bit too. But I think the "him" that Tangram refers to in the second sentence is Elton, not Dee.

[GuitarGeek]

Well, you mentioned Alice Cooper and Rick played the lead on "Under My Wheels,' one of his biggest songs.

See, now that's an example of one of Derringer's sessions I didn't know about. But that was the thing. Other than The Monkees (where for whatever reason, it became public knowledge sooner than it did with everyone else), nobody knew what was going on with a lot of those records, regardless of what era you're talking about.

I mean there's certain obvious examples where you sort of knew it couldn't be the guy pictured on the record, like on Creatures Of The Night, where half the guitar solos don't even come close to sounding like something Ace would have played, but beyond that, it was decades before anyone really knew about most of this stuff, since it was usually uncredited (kudos to Steely Dan for admitting that it's Elliott Randall playing the solos on Reeling In The Years, and not Baxter or Dias)

Yes, and Hunter-Wagner ghosted a lot of the guitar on Billion Dollar Babies.

Yeah, I address that point, though you're being a little more specific. I just remember stuff I remember from interviews with Hunter and Wagner decades after the fact. According to Wiki, there's actually a third guitarist who deputized on that record, someone named Mick Mashbir. Apparently, Glenn Buxton had pancreatis, and in true Ezrin fashion, they decided to not wait until he was healthy enough to record. Of course, "pancreatis" could be a euphemism, though by now, I suspect if it was, either Coop or Ezrin would have admitted it.

[Progbear]

All this talk of Rick Derringer and nobody mentions Weird Al’s “Eat It”?

Actually, say what you want about Weird Al, at least he took the time to painstakingly recreated the sound of the original songs, instead of just lazily tossing something together with a karaoke tape like his legion of imitators just looking for three minutes of fame via the Dr. Demento Show.

But you are correct that there was a lot of studio musicians used on records by various bands in the LA area, as detailed in the Wrecking Crew documentary. Apparently, Gary Lewis has never worked with a guitarist who could actually play the Spanish guitar runs on whichever song it was, I forget, like Tommy Tedesco did on the record.

Funny you should mention it, since Lewis was a totally prefabricated pop star, way more than the Monkees. Apparently he was content to be the Playboys’ drummer, but a combination of pressure from his label, Snuff Baxter and his pushy stage mom forced him to capitalize on second-hand fame via his parentage and thrust himself in the spotlight. This despite the fact that he couldn’t really sing. There was a lot of studio sweetening going on. I forget the name of the guy, but there was a session singer whose job it was to sing in close formation to Gary to make it sound like he could sing better than he actually could. For all that, “Count Me In” is close to a masterpiece, largely due to imaginative production and some dazzling keyboard work from the late, great Leon Russell (oh, that celeste!).

And while it became less common after the end of the 60's, it still happened from time to time. You should see the list of records that Steve Lukather played guitar on. He's on a track on Cheap Trick's Dream Police album, that's him playing the solo on She's A Beauty by The Tubes (I once heard that particular Tubes record described as "essentially Toto pretending to be The Tubes").

That last Triumvirat album, Russian Roulette, is essentially a Toto album with keyboards by Jürgen Fritz (and vocals by that loser they got to replace David Hanselmann).

Agree completely about Dee Murray. Never mentioned as a great bassist but he could really play. I have seem him many times and while his voice is deeper and a bit tattered at times (he is 70), he can still bring it and his playing is better than ever. For those how think his talent died after the 70's, should check out his albums from this century. There is plenty of very good material there. They all have some light weight material on it (usually the song that hits the airwaves), but he always has a few gems on the album too.

Songs From the West Coast was a good one. I was quite disappointed by Peachtree Road, it just sounded like Lion King drivel with more stripped-down production.

[JJ88]

Peachtree Road has grown on me a little but it feels like two albums stapled together. A 'back to the roots' one and an Adult Contemporary one. The former is better.

[SteveSly]

All this talk of Rick Derringer and nobody mentions Weird Al’s “Eat It”?

Actually, say what you want about Weird Al, at least he took the time to painstakingly recreated the sound of the original songs, instead of just lazily tossing something together with a karaoke tape like his legion of imitators just looking for three minutes of fame via the Dr. Demento Show.



Funny you should mention it, since Lewis was a totally prefabricated pop star, way more than the Monkees. Apparently he was content to be the Playboys’ drummer, but a combination of pressure from his label, Snuff Baxter and his pushy stage mom forced him to capitalize on second-hand fame via his parentage and thrust himself in the spotlight. This despite the fact that he couldn’t really sing. There was a lot of studio sweetening going on. I forget the name of the guy, but there was a session singer whose job it was to sing in close formation to Gary to make it sound like he could sing better than he actually could. For all that, “Count Me In” is close to a masterpiece, largely due to imaginative production and some dazzling keyboard work from the late, great Leon Russell (oh, that celeste!).



That last Triumvirat album, Russian Roulette, is essentially a Toto album with keyboards by Jürgen Fritz (and vocals by that loser they got to replace David Hanselmann).



Songs From the West Coast was a good one. I was quite disappointed by Peachtree Road, it just sounded like Lion King drivel with more stripped-down production.

Agreed "Songs From The West Coast" is one of his best latter day albums. The one he did with Leon Russel called "The Union" is also mostly great. "The Captain And The Kid" (sequel to "Captain Fantastic" ) is also quite strong IMO. "Peachtree Road" is just ok.

[GuitarGeek]

All this talk of Rick Derringer and nobody mentions Weird Al’s “Eat It”?

Well, if you're gonna bring that up, then I should point out that Derringer also played on Air Supply's Making Love Out Of Nothing At All and Bonnie Tyler's Total Eclipse Of The Heart, or at least that's what it says on Wikipedia. NO wonder the two songs are almost indistinguishable from each other (that and the fact that they were both written by the Master Of Musical Melodrama, Mr Jim Steinman).

If I remember correctly, Weird Al has always used the same back up band, so I suppose that the Eat It example fits what we're talking about, ie a musician (who in this case, was producing the record anyway) filling in for someone else.

Actually, say what you want about Weird Al, at least he took the time to painstakingly recreated the sound of the original songs, instead of just lazily tossing something together with a karaoke tape like his legion of imitators just looking for three minutes of fame via the Dr. Demento Show.

Yeah, and he carries that over to the videos, at least with some of them anyway. Whenever I see the videos for Beat It or Smells Like Teen Spirit, during the first few seconds, I'm not sure if I'm watching the original video or the Weird Al parody. If I'm not mistaken, in at least two examples, he hired the same video director, they used the same sets, even the same extras.

But since you mentioned it, I should point out that Weird All actually did start his recording career by making a homemade tape (in a radio station bathroom) which got played on Dr. Demento. Everyone else probably reckons they can follow suit by doing something similar, though it typically doesn't work, or it only works for a very brief stretch of time.

[ronmac]

Derringer got a lot of that work because he can play any style and do it as well as anyone. He's an incredible guitarist.

[Tangram]

I was confused a bit too. But I think the "him" that Tangram refers to in the second sentence is Elton, not Dee.

Note to self: Stop typing when you are really tired. Thanks Baribrotzer for correctly deciphering my post.

[Progbear]

I really should listen to that Elton John/Leon Russell album some time. Talk about a dream team!

[Tangram]

I really should listen to that Elton John/Leon Russell album some time. Talk about a dream team!

The Union is a very good album but makes you wish they got together 40 years ago. Leon was at Elton's concert at the Troubadour in 1970 when he broke it in the USA and Elton said he was a huge fan of Leon's.

[Le Master]

I really should listen to that Elton John/Leon Russell album some time. Talk about a dream team!

You really need to. It's in my top 30 favorite albums.