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Thread: [Video] Yes - Close To The Edge Organ Solos - Wakeman, Wakeman, Brlisin, Downes

  1. #51
    Moderator Sean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffCarney View Post
    Except those days when he's out of tune, overdoing the Jan Hammer on steroids schtick, or underdoing his research on how to adapt to Wakeman's parts.
    This^^

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffCarney View Post
    And in this clip, you rate Wakeman Sr. highly in this regard?
    I wouldn't look to any Wakeman for a great organ sound. Great tones and their ears (and what they perceive as good tones) seldom meet.

  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Sean View Post
    I wouldn't look to any Wakeman for a great organ sound. Great tones and their ears (and what they perceive as good tones) seldom meet.
    Wakeman's organ tones in 1972 gave me no issues. Not my favorite, and he favored a more clean sound, but I think it complimented that period of Yes beautifully.

    Whatever he's doing to approximate that sound in the clip linked, however ...

    ;-)

  4. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by JeffCarney View Post
    Except those days when he's out of tune, overdoing the Jan Hammer on steroids schtick, or underdoing his research on how to adapt to Wakeman's parts.
    He struggled with Wakeman's parts for sure, he ruined the QPR gig!

  5. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Man In The Mountain View Post
    He knew not to hire him again?

    Moraz sounds great playing Moraz material, as does Downes playing Asia material.
    Did you ever hear Wakeman play the fanfare/Soon section of Gates of Delerium in 1978/79? I did. He was not impressive.
    Last edited by ssully; 04-28-2017 at 11:57 AM.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssully View Post
    Did you ever hear Wakeman play the fanfare/Soon section of Gates in 1978/79? I did. He was not impressive.
    Nor does he really get a good half of The Yes Album right live.

    That being said, he is to this day the flashiest keyboardist to see live performing Yes.

    I mean come on, he carried the ARW shows musically on his back.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssully View Post
    Did you ever hear Wakeman play the fanfare/Soon section of Gates in 1978/79? I did. He was not impressive.
    It seems nearly anyone who plays in YES has a hard time interpreting what past players have done. (Exception with Brislin & Igor, on keys anyways.) Wakeman at least doesn't have to cover much of what he didn't play on, so the entire concert won't suffer like QPR.


    Quote Originally Posted by chescorph View Post
    Nor does he really get a good half of The Yes Album right live.

    That being said, he is to this day the flashiest keyboardist to see live performing Yes.

    I mean come on, he carried the ARW shows musically on his back.
    His interpretations of The Yes Album are good. His Starship Trooper outro is the preferred version.

    Fully agree he carried ARW. No other keyboard player in YES could do that.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffCarney View Post
    And in this clip, you rate Wakeman Sr. highly in this regard?
    Yes. His sound had an attack at the beginning of the notes, so that it wasn't one big slur...
    Gnish-gnosh borble wiff, shlauuffin oople tirk.

  9. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by chescorph View Post
    Nor does he really get a good half of The Yes Album right live.
    Wakeman admitted he'd been playing 'Yours Is No Disgrace' wrong for years, and he learned the correct part from Tony Kaye circa Union. I actually prefer Wakeman's Yessongs-era interpretation, though

  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Man In The Mountain View Post
    It seems nearly anyone who plays in YES has a hard time interpreting what past players have done. (Exception with Brislin & Igor, on keys anyways.) Wakeman at least doesn't have to cover much of what he didn't play on, so the entire concert won't suffer like QPR.
    For me the basic audio issues with QPR far outstrip any issues with Moraz's interpretations (I tend to like them, and btw, when he got it in tune, Moraz's rendition of the big Moog cadenza of Close to the Edge, and the moog break in 'Ritual', beat any of Wakeman's I've ever heard, from Progeny years on). When he's properly mixed and his rig is behaving (as on *most* of the Roosevelt Stadium 1976 show) he holds his own nicely on the old tunes.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Man In The Mountain View Post
    It seems nearly anyone who plays in YES has a hard time interpreting what past players have done. (Exception with Brislin & Igor, on keys anyways.) Wakeman at least doesn't have to cover much of what he didn't play on, so the entire concert won't suffer like QPR.
    Totally agree. Perhaps that's not a bad thing- Kaye, R. Wakeman, Moraz, Downes...they all have their own virtues, making significant contributions to the legacy in their own right.

    I certainly feel Brislin was the one that got away, as this clip shows.

    I am not keen on Moraz's playing of Wakeman/Kaye material...with the sole exception of 'Ritual' which I think stepped up a gear with that line-up. The Yesshows version is definitive, IMHO...that freakout section is as far out as they ever got- I love it, and would have liked even more like that! And Relayer itself is a masterpiece IMHO.

  12. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikhael View Post
    Yes. His sound had an attack at the beginning of the notes, so that it wasn't one big slur...
    Attack is important, but that tone Wakeman was using at that time was digital puke, IMO.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffCarney View Post
    Attack is important, but that tone Wakeman was using at that time was digital puke, IMO.
    Yeah, but with no attack, Junior's rendition was almost like taking your elbow and rubbing it up and down the keyboard...

    For some reason, Wakey just fits Yes to me. The personality, playing, whatever... he just fits. Fragile and CttE... it doesn't get much better than that. That group of people made magic. Not to say other albums were bad, it's just that when someone asks me what Prog is, I hand them CttE; 'nuff said. That covers most of it.
    Gnish-gnosh borble wiff, shlauuffin oople tirk.

  14. #64
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    Brislin played with us on a gig (Frogg show, NJPH '13) and during a freaky improv he was right there listening and reacting. Huge ears and great player.

  15. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikhael View Post
    Yeah, but with no attack, Junior's rendition was almost like taking your elbow and rubbing it up and down the keyboard...
    My basis for comparison isn't what else is in this comparison video, but to Wakeman's original tone.

    Most of the tones in these clips are just putrid, IMO.

  16. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by JeffCarney View Post
    Except those days when he's out of tune,

    Moraz doesn't sing. So, how can he be out of tune?

    Maybe you are referring to the Moog. Then, I agree with you. I, too, am shocked - SHOCKED - that a Moog went out of tune. Everyone knows that Moogs are known for their Rock Solid (TM) tuning stability. In fact, the Moog's tuning stability actually increased under adverse conditions, such as an outdoor concert on cold and damp Spring day. This was due to the Moog's patent pending Carney circuit. And, even though the Moog has just been subjected to a cloud of cold, damp vapor from a dry ice machine, it would have absolutely no effect.

    Since, Moraz was playing the Hammond at the time, the only possible reason is that he de-tuned the Moog with his mind.
    (Always with the negative waves, Moraz. Always with the negative ways.)

    And, I guess that you only consider this as a keyboard thread, or, maybe an audiophile such as yourself suffered a memory blockage caused by the trauma you experienced when Howe retuned his guitar between songs at the same time that Anderson's guitar buzzed and crackled. (Howe should have ritually disemboweled himself on stage for dishonoring Yes in such a way.) I don't know how you are able to attend concerts as guitars are always going out of tune and breaking strings. Not to mention the problem with vocalists.


    Quote Originally Posted by JeffCarney View Post
    overdoing the Jan Hammer on steroids schtick

    I'm sorry that he offends your delicate aesthetic sensibilities. But, take heart! At least he is only 1/1000 as annoying as Allan Holdsworth's pitch bending. I can't wait until that guy dies and the world is finally rid of his audio abominations!


    Quote Originally Posted by JeffCarney View Post
    underdoing his research on how to adapt to Wakeman's parts.

    You don't hire someone like Moraz to replicate Wakeman's parts, but to re-create the pieces in a different way.
    And, isn't that one axiom of "progressive" music?

  17. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by A. Scherze View Post
    Moraz doesn't sing. So, how can he be out of tune?
    Glad I'm not drinking coffee at the moment.

    D'ohkay ...

    Look, I'm a huge fan of Moraz. I think the guy is one of the most innovative keyboard players rock has ever seen. A simply amazing, brilliant player.

    But you had to cut down in Wakeman in order to (I guess) "prop up" Moraz, so I think Moraz shouldn't be immune from criticism in response. And this guy had problems with his rig more than just about ANYBODY of the mid 70s.

    Wakeman, Keith Emerson, Rick Wright, etc., etc. ... these guys never played big venues? They didn't have Moogs?

    In my days of collecting live tapes, nobody but NOBODY had more problems than Moraz when listening to live shows from bands with keyboard players. Bringing in sounds too loud, way too often out of tune ... I made every excuse in the book in my head because I loved the guy, but now I'm too old to give a fuck and know better anyway than to think because I admire a musician that he is henceforth "perfect." Part of being a great musician is having control of your instrument/s. Moraz is an amazing keyboard player, but perhaps not always the greatest musician. How many times does Tony Banks bring in a synth part that is out of whack? It is strictly because he played an ARP? If this was the issue then Moraz would have been well advised to just get a couple of Pro Soloists and get his stuff together.

    I've worked with Micromoogs and they can be a bit of a pain, but I didn't often use them for "soloing" and if I did I had a wet, distant sound I could bring in gently and adjust as necessary as it came in. In case it had drifted a bit! But if you really spend time tuning those fuckers they hold pretty well. You have to tune every damned board patiently and each has to be checked against the others, checked and checked again. I played a different type of music, but had I needed to bring in synth bits in a band, I'd like to think I wouldn't have gone to a straight, bone dry Micromoog that was too damned loud while humping the pitch-bend as if that could solve anything. Not saying Moraz did this all the time and I realize the venues, temperatures and so forth can surely be more problematic, of course, but his issues with tuning and balance were clearly more common than was common for many of his peers. Maybe for good reasons? But the end result is the same.

    And look, get real! Sometimes not adapting Wakeman's parts to his own style worth a damn isn't a sign of "progression," it's a sign of "I don't really know what the fuck I'm doing here."

    But my point really wasn't to "cut down" Moraz. Your premise was that "Moraz beats the pants off Wakeman every day of the week" or somesuch. Wakeman has some issues for me in other respects and especially as he is now, but back in the early 70s I think that your statement would simply be nonsense. Wakeman was a far better ensemble player than Moraz. Better at complimenting, getting the heck out of the way and certainly better at having his sonic attack in above average check.

  18. #68
    Member chalkpie's Avatar
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    This is gonna be entertaining.

  19. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by JeffCarney View Post
    Glad I'm not drinking coffee at the moment.

    D'ohkay ...

    Look, I'm a huge fan of Moraz. I think the guy is one of the most innovative keyboard players rock has ever seen. A simply amazing, brilliant player.

    But you had to cut down in Wakeman in order to (I guess) "prop up" Moraz, so I think Moraz shouldn't be immune from criticism in response. And this guy had problems with his rig more than just about ANYBODY of the mid 70s.

    Wakeman, Keith Emerson, Rick Wright, etc., etc. ... these guys never played big venues? They didn't have Moogs?

    In my days of collecting live tapes, nobody but NOBODY had more problems than Moraz when listening to live shows from bands with keyboard players. Bringing in sounds too loud, way too often out of tune ... I made every excuse in the book in my head because I loved the guy, but now I'm too old to give a fuck and know better anyway than to think because I admire a musician that he is henceforth "perfect." Part of being a great musician is having control of your instrument/s. Moraz is an amazing keyboard player, but perhaps not always the greatest musician. How many times does Tony Banks bring in a synth part that is out of whack? It is strictly because he played an ARP? If this was the issue then Moraz would have been well advised to just get a couple of Pro Soloists and get his stuff together.

    I've worked with Micromoogs and they can be a bit of a pain, but I didn't often use them for "soloing" and if I did I had a wet, distant sound I could bring in gently and adjust as necessary as it came in. In case it had drifted a bit! But if you really spend time tuning those fuckers they hold pretty well. You have to tune every damned board patiently and each has to be checked against the others, checked and checked again. I played a different type of music, but had I needed to bring in synth bits in a band, I'd like to think I wouldn't have gone to a straight, bone dry Micromoog that was too damned loud while humping the pitch-bend as if that could solve anything. Not saying Moraz did this all the time and I realize the venues, temperatures and so forth can surely be more problematic, of course, but his issues with tuning and balance were clearly more common than was common for many of his peers. Maybe for good reasons? But the end result is the same.

    And look, get real! Sometimes not adapting Wakeman's parts to his own style worth a damn isn't a sign of "progression," it's a sign of "I don't really know what the fuck I'm doing here."

    But my point really wasn't to "cut down" Moraz. Your premise was that "Moraz beats the pants off Wakeman every day of the week" or somesuch. Wakeman has some issues for me in other respects and especially as he is now, but back in the early 70s I think that your statement would simply be nonsense. Wakeman was a far better ensemble player than Moraz. Better at complimenting, getting the heck out of the way and certainly better at having his sonic attack in above average check.
    It's "complementing," with an "e."
    "The White Zone is for loading and unloading only. If you got to load or unload go to the White Zone!"

  20. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by JeffCarney View Post
    How many times does Tony Banks bring in a synth part that is out of whack? It is strictly because he played an ARP? If this was the issue then Moraz would have been well advised to just get a couple of Pro Soloists and get his stuff together.
    Actually, from what I gather, the ARP synths, for whatever reason, had more stable oscillators, which stayed in tune better. So, yes, maybe the reason Banks never seemed to have tuning problems was because he was playing an ARP.

    BUT, ARP synths and Moog synths tended to sound very different, largely (but not solely) because of the difference in filters. One of the key components of the Moog sound is the patented transistor ladder filter. ARP got themselves into legal trouble by copying it in the mid 70's, so it's clearly that Alan R. Perlman and company knew Moog had something that they didn't. So perhaps a lot of keyboardist preferred the tone of the Moog synths, and felt wrestling with the oscillators was worth it.

    For what it's worth, I've heard at least one ELP show where the Moog goes out of tune during the middle part of Tarkus. In fact, it's one of the shows on the second bootleg boxset they put out about 12 years ago. Keith ends up switching to playing the part on organ, because of the tuning problems. Though admittedly, I can only think of the one example.

    As for Moraz, I'm not a huge collector of Yes bootlegs, so maybe I don't have all these many examples of Moraz being out of tune in my collection. The only one I can really think of that sounds really bad is the QPR Close To The Edge thing. But as has been said, between unstable oscillators, a less than hospitable performance environment, and the need to re-tune in the middle of the song, it was bound to be tough going, no matter what. But like I said, I only have a couple of Yes bootlegs with him on keys (mainly QPR, the King Biscuit Boston Garden show, and I think I have one or two shows from 76 floating around).

    As far as him being too loud, there again, is that result of the signal being too loud coming off the stage, or is it because you're listening to a soundboard tape (which, if the sound person is doing his/her job right, is probably gonna sound at least a little weird) or (in the case of Roosevelt Stadium) a live radio broadcast, where things are gonna sound just a little weird anyway? I think it's been said that the audio on the first half of QPR is taken from sound kind of monitor feed (though I'm still not sure why they'd have been recording the monitor feed in the first place), and that's why everything is way out of whack.

  21. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by ronmac View Post
    It's "complementing," with an "e."
    Except I was using it in terms of who made Squire feel on any given night that his hair looked good.

    Well spotted.

    Feel free to spell check, inwardly, btw.

  22. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post

    As with Downes, it's not something I'd want to hear...Kaye again is more of a textural player IMHO.
    I have the feeling that Kaye would have been a great sort of quasi-jazz organist/pianist. That's kind of what you hear on those first three Yes albums. There's a video from the 90125 tour, I thikn it's actually one of the Rock In Rio festival performances, where he plays this short sort of jazz/blues piano solo as a prelude to Si (his big keyboard solo/DX-7 demo that appeared he did on that tour). He actually really sounds good on that, I thought.

  23. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    Actually, from what I gather, the ARP synths, for whatever reason, had more stable oscillators, which stayed in tune better. So, yes, maybe the reason Banks never seemed to have tuning problems was because he was playing an ARP.

    BUT, ARP synths and Moog synths tended to sound very different, largely (but not solely) because of the difference in filters. One of the key components of the Moog sound is the patented transistor ladder filter. ARP got themselves into legal trouble by copying it in the mid 70's, so it's clearly that Alan R. Perlman and company knew Moog had something that they didn't. So perhaps a lot of keyboardist preferred the tone of the Moog synths, and felt wrestling with the oscillators was worth it.

    For what it's worth, I've heard at least one ELP show where the Moog goes out of tune during the middle part of Tarkus. In fact, it's one of the shows on the second bootleg boxset they put out about 12 years ago. Keith ends up switching to playing the part on organ, because of the tuning problems. Though admittedly, I can only think of the one example.

    As for Moraz, I'm not a huge collector of Yes bootlegs, so maybe I don't have all these many examples of Moraz being out of tune in my collection. The only one I can really think of that sounds really bad is the QPR Close To The Edge thing. But as has been said, between unstable oscillators, a less than hospitable performance environment, and the need to re-tune in the middle of the song, it was bound to be tough going, no matter what. But like I said, I only have a couple of Yes bootlegs with him on keys (mainly QPR, the King Biscuit Boston Garden show, and I think I have one or two shows from 76 floating around).

    As far as him being too loud, there again, is that result of the signal being too loud coming off the stage, or is it because you're listening to a soundboard tape (which, if the sound person is doing his/her job right, is probably gonna sound at least a little weird) or (in the case of Roosevelt Stadium) a live radio broadcast, where things are gonna sound just a little weird anyway? I think it's been said that the audio on the first half of QPR is taken from sound kind of monitor feed (though I'm still not sure why they'd have been recording the monitor feed in the first place), and that's why everything is way out of whack.
    Emerson had challenges, but by '74 he was off the charts in this respect. Simply off the charts.

    Moraz didn't have as much time playing large venues by the time he joined Yes. Again, I don't mean to suggest that there might not have been reasons and some of them completely valid.

    But for those of us who have listened to lots of live Yes, I think it's sugarcoating it to suggest that Moraz didn't struggle in this respect. As an overall contributor to the band (not just as a keyboard player but as a musician) in a live setting he was a not superior to Wakeman. In fact I'd argue the opposite to be true.

    I find Moraz more remarkable than Wakeman in many ways, but it wasn't Moraz who was attacked by our "large font" friend.

    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    As far as him being too loud, there again, is that result of the signal being too loud coming off the stage, or is it because you're listening to a soundboard tape (which, if the sound person is doing his/her job right, is probably gonna sound at least a little weird) or (in the case of Roosevelt Stadium) a live radio broadcast, where things are gonna sound just a little weird anyway? I think it's been said that the audio on the first half of QPR is taken from sound kind of monitor feed (though I'm still not sure why they'd have been recording the monitor feed in the first place), and that's why everything is way out of whack.
    Do you really think what I'm saying would be based solely upon QPR?

    I'm talking about having heard probably DOZENS of shows from November '74 to August '76.

  24. #74
    Nice to see the love for my boy Tom Brislin

  25. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by JeffCarney View Post
    Glad I'm not drinking coffee at the moment.

    D'ohkay ...

    Look, I'm a huge fan of Moraz. I think the guy is one of the most innovative keyboard players rock has ever seen. A simply amazing, brilliant player.

    But you had to cut down in Wakeman in order to (I guess) "prop up" Moraz, so I think Moraz shouldn't be immune from criticism in response. And this guy had problems with his rig more than just about ANYBODY of the mid 70s.


    Jeffy, you must be smokin' something heavy, because nowhere in this thread did I "cut down" Wakeman.

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