Bracket: ITCOTCK vs Red?

**Jerjo** · 03-23-2017

I gotta go with Court on this one. Court was the start of the grand experiment while Red was the end of the era.

**moecurlythanu** · 03-23-2017

Both fine albums, but ItCotCK by a comfortable margin.

**Sturgeon's Lawyer** · 03-23-2017

Wow, this is a hard choice.

Let's take them song-by-song.

1. "21st Century Schizoid Man" vs. "Red"

Both albums open with scorching, balls-to-the-wall shock-treatment songs. "Red" has marginally more interesting riffs, and a good quiet section. But "21CSM" has (a) some amazing improvisational sections, especially live (where "Red" particularly suffers, as they mostly play it note-perfect) and (b) that stuttering stop-start section that utterly amazed a drummer friend of mine when he first heard it.

Verdict: "21CSM." 1-0.

2. "I Talk to the Wind" vs. "Fallen Angel."

Both are moody songs, one about futility and the other about, well, a different take on futility. "ITttW" has some lovely vocal harmonies, but "Fallen Angel" has a range of dynamics that gives it the edge.

Verdict: "Fallen Angel."

3. "Epitaph" vs. "One More Red Nightmare." 1-1.

More futility vs. a nightmare. "Epitaph" is quite possibly the loveliest melody Crimson ever composed, with, arguably, the best vocal performance Greg Lake ever delivered. "One More Red Nightmare" is a great rocker but loses a bit of its impact in the middle of an album of great rockers.

Verdict: "Epitaph." 2-0.

4. "Moonchild" vs. "Providence."

The big improvisational numbers of the albums, by the two best improvisational Crimsons of all their various incarnations. But "Moonchild" is a rather dull improvisation wrapped in some of Sinfield's most flatulent lyrics, as opposed to the incredibly dynamic "Providence." Plus Bill Bruford.

Verdict: "Providence." 2-2.

5. "Starless" vs. "In the Court of the Crimson King."

Quite possibly my two most favoritist Crimsongs of all time, both featuring haunting melodies and wistful mellotrons. "ItCotCK"'s lyrics are twee and faux-medieval while "Starless"'s lyrics are simply incomprehensible, so a tie on that level. "Starless" has the ultimate expression of Crimson's "tension-and-release" dynamic in its extended instrumental ending, and that tips it for me.

Verdict: "Starless." 2-3.

I give the nod to Red.

**progeezer** · 03-23-2017

Originally Posted by miamiscot

Red. Obviously.

Court. Obviously.

**Plasmatopia** · 03-23-2017

Court. And I offer no justifications.

**Kcrimso** · 03-23-2017

Red. Title track is kind of boring but otherwise brilliant stuff.

**Camelogue** · 03-23-2017

ITCOTCK because.

**Paulrus** · 03-23-2017

Another close one. I'll have to go with for Red for consistency and durability. Plus "Providence" beats out "Moonchild" IMO.

**SteveSly** · 03-23-2017

Love them both but, In The Court is one of the landmark prog albums of all time so I will have to go with that.

**Mister Triscuits** · 03-23-2017

Super hard choice. "Starless" alone makes Red almost unbeatable. But I'm going with Court: more consistently great, and the historical importance is nonpareil.

**g.bremer** · 03-23-2017

Red it is. Neither are favorites of mine, but I still listen to Red while I haven't wanted to listen to Court for some time now.

**strawberrybrick** · 03-23-2017

Originally Posted by Sturgeon's Lawyer

Verdict: "Starless." 2-3.

I give the nod to Red.

**Rufus** · 03-23-2017

Red by a country mile!

**Supersonic Scientist** · 03-23-2017

Originally Posted by Sturgeon's Lawyer

Wow, this is a hard choice.

Let's take them song-by-song.

1. "21st Century Schizoid Man" vs. "Red"

Both albums open with scorching, balls-to-the-wall shock-treatment songs. "Red" has marginally more interesting riffs, and a good quiet section. But "21CSM" has (a) some amazing improvisational sections, especially live (where "Red" particularly suffers, as they mostly play it note-perfect) and (b) that stuttering stop-start section that utterly amazed a drummer friend of mine when he first heard it.

Verdict: "21CSM." 1-0.

2. "I Talk to the Wind" vs. "Fallen Angel."

Both are moody songs, one about futility and the other about, well, a different take on futility. "ITttW" has some lovely vocal harmonies, but "Fallen Angel" has a range of dynamics that gives it the edge.

Verdict: "Fallen Angel."

3. "Epitaph" vs. "One More Red Nightmare." 1-1.

More futility vs. a nightmare. "Epitaph" is quite possibly the loveliest melody Crimson ever composed, with, arguably, the best vocal performance Greg Lake ever delivered. "One More Red Nightmare" is a great rocker but loses a bit of its impact in the middle of an album of great rockers.

Verdict: "Epitaph." 2-0.

4. "Moonchild" vs. "Providence."

The big improvisational numbers of the albums, by the two best improvisational Crimsons of all their various incarnations. But "Moonchild" is a rather dull improvisation wrapped in some of Sinfield's most flatulent lyrics, as opposed to the incredibly dynamic "Providence." Plus Bill Bruford.

Verdict: "Providence." 2-2.

5. "Starless" vs. "In the Court of the Crimson King."

Quite possibly my two most favoritist Crimsongs of all time, both featuring haunting melodies and wistful mellotrons. "ItCotCK"'s lyrics are twee and faux-medieval while "Starless"'s lyrics are simply incomprehensible, so a tie on that level. "Starless" has the ultimate expression of Crimson's "tension-and-release" dynamic in its extended instrumental ending, and that tips it for me.

Verdict: "Starless." 2-3.

I give the nod to Red.

Due to such detailed personal analysis given here. I will echo this.......but it's painful to lose a vote ItCotCK too.

**JeffCarney** · 03-23-2017

Schizoid vs. Red: Schizoid
Wind vs. Fallen Angel: Wind
Epitaph vs. One More Red Nightmare: Epitaph
Moonchild vs. Providence: Providence
Court vs. Starless: Court

I really, really like Red, but I think its endeavor to make metal "Crimsonish" sounds a little canned in spots. A little formulaic instead of organic. And the songs? Look, there's just no way in any objective sense that I can rate tracks 2&3 of Red within a hundred miles of Court. The title track of Red is a truly fascinating approach to heavy metal, but compared to "Schizoid" it sounds mechanical instead of being on the edge of that but maintaining a certain level of "fun."

"Providence" is stunning, IMO. I like "Moonchild" but this is an easy one for me.

The closers are the toughest, but for me "Crimson King" just oozes a certain depth that even "Starless" (brilliant as though it may be) can't quite reach. I think there are moments of "Starless" that match it, but on some level the latter again dives perhaps just a tad too far into the realm of mechanics. There is something clinical about it; which is fine, but in a head to head battle it can't hold up.

I also think Court was a lot more amazing for 1969 than Red for 1974. Partly due to where Crimson had already been by the time of LTIA, and maybe partly due to where Sabbath had already been by the time of Red.

**Freeze** · 03-23-2017

Red. The best King Crimson album imo.

**Score2112** · 03-23-2017

Simply, RED.

**mozo-pg** · 03-23-2017

I think Power to Believe is a natural extension to Red. A later effort but a fine album too. My top 3 - LTiA, Discipline, Power to Believe (three eras).

**gryphs also** · 03-23-2017

Starless.....all that needs to be said...thank you, and good night.

**progeezer** · 03-23-2017

Originally Posted by gryphs also

Starless.....all that needs to be said...thank you, and good night.

If ever I knew a guy whose bible was black.......

**mixfo** · 03-23-2017

RED.... I got a bit bored with ITCOTCK after a while. This has never happened with Red.

**mogrooves** · 03-23-2017

Court is the shit. An unprecedented achievement by an innovative group of individual innovators.

Red remains my fav of that mid-70s band, in large measure due to the return of the winds, and its summative vibe. Oh, yeah, and the tunes are pretty hip as well.