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Thread: CHICAGO: Anything good / recommendable after VII ?

  1. #26
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    CHICAGO: Anything good / recommendable after VII ?

    Basically, not much... and who cares??
    Outside CHI 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Krautman View Post
    Thanks to all for your inputs which tend to confirm that there's not much material to be saved after VII. Ill' probably venture into VIII (Harry Truman had been recommended many times) and that's all... I had some expectations in the "lost album" Stone of Sisyphus/XXXII (being then rejected by the record company was a good sign) but from the excerpts I've heard so far I would say no...
    And yes, C.T.A is amongst the best albums ever.
    I don't think 8 is any better than 6, and the latter was their weakest album in their first seven.

    Quote Originally Posted by unclemeat View Post
    Discs One & Two: Isle Of Wight Festival (8/28/70) *


    DVD: Rockpalast (2/12/77) *
    1. Anyway You Want
    2. Saturday In The Park
    3. Skin Tight
    4. Just You ’n’ Me
    5. Hope For Love
    6. You Are On My Mind
    7. Does Anybody Really Know What Time It Is?
    8. Ballet For A Girl In Buchannon
    9. Beginnings
    10. Scrapbook
    11. A Hit By Varèse
    12. Call On Me
    13. Takin’ It On Uptown
    14. If You Leave Me Now
    15. Once Or Twice
    16. (I’ve Been) Searchin’ So Long”/“Mongonucleosis
    17. 25 Or 6 To 4
    18. Got To Get You Into My Life
    19. I’m A Man

    * Previously Unreleased
    I'd only go for the DVD. The Wight Festival could be interesting, and the start of disc 3 maybe, but I've got what I need with the Carnegie concert
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  2. #27
    I always liked VIII (8). None of the long-form stuff but still some unusual tracks for them, actually 3 tracks sans horns. There's the hard-rock riffing "Hideaway", Kath's trippy "Oh Thank You Great Spirit" with extended guitar coda, and an acoustic Kath ballad, "Til We Meet Again." That was the last Chicago album I actually bought although I did hear the next few with Kath and thought they were decent. I was playing bass in Chicago bands all through high school and college and I think the last song we did was "Alive Again" from the first album with Donnie Dacus on guitar. I didn't pay much attention to them after that...
    You say Mega Ultra Deluxe Special Limited Edition Extended Autographed 5-LP, 3-CD, 4-DVD, 2-BlueRay, 4-Cassette, five 8-Track, MP4 Download plus Demos, Outtakes, Booklet, T-Shirt and Guitar Pick Gold-Leafed Box Set Version like it's a bad thing...

  3. #28
    I've known bits and pieces by Chicago for years, but have only started dipping into the albums properly recently.

    I've heard Transit Authority, II, X, 16 and possibly V (though I'm not entirely sure on the latter). Since a few of you have recommended VIII, I'll try that next.

  4. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by mandrake root View Post
    I've known bits and pieces by Chicago for years, but have only started dipping into the albums properly recently.

    I've heard Transit Authority, II, X, 16 and possibly V (though I'm not entirely sure on the latter). Since a few of you have recommended VIII, I'll try that next.
    If you like the more adventurous material I'd suggest III, V and VII.

  5. #30
    Moderator Sean's Avatar
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    After VII it gets pretty spotty. You could probably make a great compilation CD of the best stuff.

  6. #31
    Jon Neudorf
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    Call me crazy but i also dig X and XI as well as Hot Streets. XI in particular has some awesome fretwork from Kath and his two lead vocals are excellent as well. Being his last album with the band i have slways felt this is an important piece. Sure there is Cetera balladry here but i have always liked 'Baby What a Big Surprise', a nice followup ballad to 'If You Leave Me Now' from X. Have to admit im a sucker for the occasional ballad.
    Heard their latest is good and a somewhat return to form but still need to check it out.

  7. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by jlneudorf View Post
    Heard their latest is good and a somewhat return to form but still need to check it out.
    Chicago is one of those groups where if they put out four good songs on an album, I'm pretty happy. I read mostly good reviews so picked it up last year. I agree with this review from Allmusic:

    Allmusic's Stephen Erlewine assigned 3.5 stars out of 5, calling the album "united in sound and sensibility, anchored upon the splashy horn-fueled jazz-pop they pioneered in the '70s but usually returning to the slick professional adult contemporary of the '80s", with songs that are "big, smooth, cheerful, and bright, emphasizing melody over instrumental interplay, explicitly evoking the past without re-creating it" (wikipedia)

    By coincidence I almost played it yesterday since I hadn't for a year.

  8. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Krautman View Post
    I had some expectations in the "lost album" Stone of Sisyphus/XXXII (being then rejected by the record company was a good sign)
    According to WIkipedia, it's apparently a lot more complicated than that. There's a quote on the page for that album where Peter Wolf, who produced the album (yes, the same Peter Wolf who played keyboards in Zappa's band and also produced We Built This City), said that Mo Ostin jumped up and down and said "That's a hit!" when the album for him.

    For those who don't know, Ostin was the head of A&R at Warners during the 80's, and was, among other things, apparently the guy who forced Eric Clapton to drop three songs from Behind The Sun and replace them with three new tracks that were recorded in LA with the A Team backing him. So his approval is, at best, something one should be circumspect about.

    It's been suggested that what happened was there was a regime change at the label soon thereafter, and the new A&R team considerably less enthusiastic. I think part of it had to do with the fact that the band refused to let the label hear anything until after it was finished, which is considered a major breach of protocol when you're dealing with major labels, and some people decided that "an example" needed to be made of this particular record.

    It's also been implied that Warners held the record hostage because they were trying to negotiate a deal with Chicago whereby the rights to the band's entire catalog (including the Columbia era albums, which was something like the first 11 or 12 albums) would be transferred to Warners, and this was supposed to be some kind of negotiation tactic.

    At any rate, Stone Of Sisyphus is not the "artistically ambitious" whatever that it was reported on Behind The Music and in other quarters. It's a pop record, not unlike the records they had made in the 80's. But I think the production and songwriting are both much better. The horn section is more prominent (how many of those 80's era hits even have horn charts?!). I've always dug Stone Of Sisyphus itself, always thought that was a great song, and I also like Bigger Than Elvis, which was Jason Scheff's tribute to his father, who played bass in Elvis' 70's era band. Been a long time since I listened to the album (I actually had a bootleg copy that someone on AOL gave me back in the late 90's), so I don't remember much about the rest of the songs.

    I think the big change on Stone Of Sisyphus is that the songs were all written or co-written by the band members. They had been relying on songs by outside writers for their last few albums, in particular, there's an inordinate number of Diane Warren songs on Chicago 19 and Chicago Twenty 1. If you don't know who Diane Warren is, count yourself as fortunate. I'll only say that when the revolution comes, she and her colleagues will be brought to justice for their crimes against music (see also Holly Knight, Desmond Child, and Jim Vallance).
    Last edited by GuitarGeek; 03-02-2018 at 01:54 PM.

  9. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by jlneudorf View Post
    Call me crazy but i also dig X and XI as well as Hot Streets.
    Most cuts there are enjoyable and XIV is also worth a listen.

  10. #35
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    Very accurate and interesting infos Guitar. Thanks for your post.

  11. #36
    ALL ACCESS Gruno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    If you don't know who Diane Warren is, count yourself as fortunate. I'll only say that when the revolution comes, she and her colleagues will be brought to justice for their crimes against music (see also Holly Knight, Desmond Child, and Jim Vallance).
    Your opinion is noted. However, I feel Knight/Child/Vallance (and Bryan Adams, plus you forgot Jean Beauvoir) had some very strong songs that were written & recorded through the years. So there !

  12. #37
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    Well...to these ears, while Warren, Child and Vallance certainly increased the band's financial fortunes, they also single handedly wussified Aerosmith with sap like Angel, I don't want to miss a thing, etc.

    Actually its more Kalodner's fault for insisting on the outside writers...
    Death inspires me like a dog inspires a rabbit

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by MudShark22 View Post
    Well...to these ears, while Warren, Child and Vallance certainly increased the band's financial fortunes, they also single handedly wussified Aerosmith with sap like Angel, I don't want to miss a thing, etc.

    Actually its more Kalodner's fault for insisting on the outside writers...
    I'm not a fan of Aerosmith so I wouldn't know about that.

  14. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Gruno View Post
    Your opinion is noted. However, I feel Knight/Child/Vallance (and Bryan Adams, plus you forgot Jean Beauvoir) had some very strong songs that were written & recorded through the years. So there !
    Well, Gene Simmons took a Vallance/Adams song and somehow turned it into War Machine, so I'll give you that one. And I will admit I do like a couple of the Kiss songs that Child is credited with co-writing, notably I've Had Enough. Let's see (checking Wikipedia), Holly Knight wrote Change (as recorded by John Waite), Better Be Good To Me, and Love Is A Battlefield, and she co-wrote Obsession. Those I thought were pretty good.

    As for Jean Beauvoir, I have to admit, apart from the stuff he co-wrote on Animalize and Asylum, I really only know a couple songs, notably Feel The Heat (which I remember MTV playing a lot when it came out) and that Ramones song he co-wrote, Bonzo Goes To Bitburg. I somehow have a feeling you're gonna tell there was a lot of stuff of his on MTV, but since I didn't buy the records, I didn't know who wrote what.

    But a lot of times, the songs those sort of people wrote was the kind of MOR stuff that kinda ruined rock music during the mid and late 80's. Actually, I suppose one should blame the record company execs, since they were the ones who pushed all their rock acts into making more MOR music. But then again, as demonstrated above, there were a few instances were the results weren't too bad, if you don't mind overly glossy sounding pop music.

  15. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by MudShark22 View Post

    Actually its more Kalodner's fault for insisting on the outside writers...
    Not just Kalodner but all the rest of the A&R jive turkeys in LA. They were all pushing that pop stuff on their rock clients for the purposes of generating "crossover" hits. I don't care how a big a song is, in terms of record sales or where it peaked on Billboard or Cashbox or whatever. Just because a song was a number one hit doesn't it was actually better than something that peaked at #97 (or didn't chart at all). And half the time, the best songs on any given record are the ones that weren't released as singles, anyway!

    Does anyone know why he's always credited as "John Kalodner: John Kalodner"? Yeah, I know who he is, he's an A&R guy. But then his credit should read "A&R: John Kalodner" or whatever. I don't know how many records I have where the former credit appears. I mean, there must be a story there.

  16. #41
    ALL ACCESS Gruno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    But a lot of times, the songs those sort of people wrote was the kind of MOR stuff that kinda ruined rock music during the mid and late 80's. Actually, I suppose one should blame the record company execs, since they were the ones who pushed all their rock acts into making more MOR music. But then again, as demonstrated above, there were a few instances were the results weren't too bad, if you don't mind overly glossy sounding pop music.
    There's room for all music!

    Vallance/Adams did great work together. Bryan Adams' "Reckless" 30th Anniversary Super Deluxe Edition Box-set release from a couple of years ago is fantastic!

  17. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    For those who don't know, Ostin was the head of A&R at Warners during the 80's, and was, among other things, apparently the guy who forced Eric Clapton to drop three songs from Behind The Sun and replace them with three new tracks that were recorded in LA with the A Team backing him. So his approval is, at best, something one should be circumspect about. .
    I'm with Ostin re. Behind the Sun. I think that album contains some of Clapton's very best latter-day material (She's Waiting, Same Old Blues, Just Like a Prisoner). But the deleted tracks (at least the ones that were on B-sides) are really weak, and the added commercial songs make a nice complement to the rest of the album.

  18. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by bRETT View Post
    I'm with Ostin re. Behind the Sun. I think that album contains some of Clapton's very best latter-day material (She's Waiting, Same Old Blues, Just Like a Prisoner). But the deleted tracks (at least the ones that were on B-sides) are really weak, and the added commercial songs make a nice complement to the rest of the album.
    I always thought it was funny that one of the singles off that album was She's Waiting, which was one of the tracks that were on the album to begin with. It just seemed weird to me that one would say "This album isn't commercial enough", then when it came time to pick singles, you'd pick a song that was part of the original package already.

    I'm sure I've heard at least a couple of the songs that were dropped from Behind The Sun years ago, as I borrowed the Crossroads boxset from the library once, but it's been so long, I don't remember much about either.

  19. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Gruno View Post
    There's room for all music!
    Yes, but everything in it's own place. If you want MOR pop music, fine, but when I listen to rock groups, I want to hear them play rock music, not some pop song that could just easily be done by Cline Dion or Laura Branigan or whomever.

  20. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Gruno View Post
    There's room for all music!

    Vallance/Adams did great work together. Bryan Adams' "Reckless" 30th Anniversary Super Deluxe Edition Box-set release from a couple of years ago is fantastic!
    Bryan Adams was not bad. Not one of my favorites, but he had a certain edge on some of his stuff I liked. He had a few songs I remember liking. He had a good guitarist in his band too. But I'd really love to hear the original demo of the song that Gene turned into War Machine. I'd just like to hear what it sounded like to begin with.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    According to WIkipedia, it's apparently a lot more complicated than that. There's a quote on the page for that album where Peter Wolf, who produced the album (yes, the same Peter Wolf who played keyboards in Zappa's band and also produced We Built This City), said that Mo Ostin jumped up and down and said "That's a hit!" when the album for him.

    For those who don't know, Ostin was the head of A&R at Warners during the 80's, and was, among other things, apparently the guy who forced Eric Clapton to drop three songs from Behind The Sun and replace them with three new tracks that were recorded in LA with the A Team backing him. So his approval is, at best, something one should be circumspect about.

    It's been suggested that what happened was there was a regime change at the label soon thereafter, and the new A&R team considerably less enthusiastic. I think part of it had to do with the fact that the band refused to let the label hear anything until after it was finished, which is considered a major breach of protocol when you're dealing with major labels, and some people decided that "an example" needed to be made of this particular record.

    It's also been implied that Warners held the record hostage because they were trying to negotiate a deal with Chicago whereby the rights to the band's entire catalog (including the Columbia era albums, which was something like the first 11 or 12 albums) would be transferred to Warners, and this was supposed to be some kind of negotiation tactic.

    At any rate, Stone Of Sisyphus is not the "artistically ambitious" whatever that it was reported on Behind The Music and in other quarters. It's a pop record, not unlike the records they had made in the 80's. But I think the production and songwriting are both much better. The horn section is more prominent (how many of those 80's era hits even have horn charts?!). I've always dug Stone Of Sisyphus itself, always thought that was a great song, and I also like Bigger Than Elvis, which was Jason Scheff's tribute to his father, who played bass in Elvis' 70's era band. Been a long time since I listened to the album (I actually had a bootleg copy that someone on AOL gave me back in the late 90's), so I don't remember much about the rest of the songs.

    I think the big change on Stone Of Sisyphus is that the songs were all written or co-written by the band members. They had been relying on songs by outside writers for their last few albums, in particular, there's an inordinate number of Diane Warren songs on Chicago 19 and Chicago Twenty 1. If you don't know who Diane Warren is, count yourself as fortunate. I'll only say that when the revolution comes, she and her colleagues will be brought to justice for their crimes against music (see also Holly Knight, Desmond Child, and Jim Vallance).
    I have the official version released(Finally) by Chicago and a cdr bootleg someone sent me that has an extra track written by then guitarist, DeWayne Bailey of course I forgot the title now but anyway, I feel it's the best song after Stone Of Sysyphus. Why it was rejected for the official release I haven't a clue but I think it smokes. I liked DeWayne Bailey's playing way more than Keith Howland's in fact. I think Bailey had the spirit of Terry Kath in mind when he played. He also dressed like Jimi Hendrix and we all know what Terry meant to Jimi.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by unclemeat View Post
    https://burningshed.com/chicago_chic..._category=true

    Chicago: VI Decades Live (This Is What We Do)

    "A 4CD/1DVD box set capturing the best of Chicago live between 1969 and 2014.

    The first two discs - which represent a brilliant snapshot of a band on the verge of stardom - are dedicated to the entirety of Chicago’s headlining performance at the Isle of Wight Festival on August 28, 1970. The remaining discs include live performances selected from over six decades of performances.The DVD includes Chicago's February 12, 1977 performance on the German music television show Rockpalast. A superb overview of the band’s career to that point, it contains unforgettable performance of Saturday In The Park, Just You ’n’ Me, Call On Me and (I’ve Been) Searchin’ So Long/Mogonucleosis. As a bonus, the DVD also includes the band’s fan favorite performance of What’s This World Comin’ To. The set comes with a 24-page booklet illustrated with rare images selected from the band’s vast archive."

    Discs One & Two: Isle Of Wight Festival (8/28/70) *

    1. Introduction
    2. South California Purples
    3. Beginnings
    4. In The Country
    5. Does Anybody Really Know What Time It Is?
    6. Mother
    7. It Better End Soon
    8. Ballet For A Girl In Buchannon
    9. 25 Or 6 To 4
    10. I’m A Man

    Disc Three *

    1. Poem For The People (Paris, France, 8/14/69)
    2. 25 Or 6 To 4 (Paris, France, 8/14/69)
    3. Liberation (Paris, France, 8/14/69)
    4. Goodbye (The John F. Kennedy Center For The Performing Arts, Washington D.C., 9/16/71)
    5. Now That You’ve Gone (Hordern Pavilion, Sydney, Australia, 6/26/72)
    6. A Hit By Varèse (Chicago Stadium, Chicago, IL, 8/13/73)
    7. Takin’ It On Uptown (Oakland Coliseum, Oakland, CA, 12/1/77)
    8. If You Leave Me Now (Oakland Coliseum, Oakland, CA, 12/1/77)

    Disc Four *

    1. Hot Streets (Greek Theater, Los Angeles, 8/11/78)
    2. Little One (Greek Theater, Los Angeles, 8/11/78)
    3. Forever (Pensacola Civic Center, Pensacola, FL, 3/21/87)
    4. Medley: In The Midnight Hour/Knock On Wood/I’m A Man/Get Away (Pensacola Civic Center, Pensacola, FL, 3/21/87)
    5. You’re Not Alone (Starplex Amphitheater, Dallas, TX, 5/30/92)
    6. The Pull (Caesar’s Palace, Las Vegas, NV, 3/20/94)
    7. In The Mood (Caesar’s Palace, Atlantic City, NJ, 7/28/94)
    8. Don’t Get Around Much Anymore (Caesar’s Palace, Atlantic City, NJ, 7/28/94)
    9. Look Away – A&E Network, Live By Request, 9/5/02)
    10. America (WHYY, The Grand, Wilmington, DE, 5/7/14)

    DVD: Rockpalast (2/12/77) *

    1. Anyway You Want
    2. Saturday In The Park
    3. Skin Tight
    4. Just You ’n’ Me
    5. Hope For Love
    6. You Are On My Mind
    7. Does Anybody Really Know What Time It Is?
    8. Ballet For A Girl In Buchannon
    9. Beginnings
    10. Scrapbook
    11. A Hit By Varèse
    12. Call On Me
    13. Takin’ It On Uptown
    14. If You Leave Me Now
    15. Once Or Twice
    16. (I’ve Been) Searchin’ So Long”/“Mongonucleosis
    17. 25 Or 6 To 4
    18. Got To Get You Into My Life
    19. I’m A Man

    * Previously Unreleased
    I AM SO GETTIN' THIS!

  23. #48
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  24. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Rand Kelly View Post
    I have the official version released(Finally) by Chicago and a cdr bootleg someone sent me that has an extra track written by then guitarist, DeWayne Bailey of course I forgot the title now but anyway, I feel it's the best song after Stone Of Sysyphus. Why it was rejected for the official release I haven't a clue but I think it smokes. I liked DeWayne Bailey's playing way more than Keith Howland's in fact. I think Bailey had the spirit of Terry Kath in mind when he played. He also dressed like Jimi Hendrix and we all know what Terry meant to Jimi.
    I haven't heard much of Bailey's playing, but I know from his internet commentary that he is quite a Zappa diehard.

  25. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    Does anyone know why he's always credited as "John Kalodner: John Kalodner"? Yeah, I know who he is, he's an A&R guy. But then his credit should read "A&R: John Kalodner" or whatever. I don't know how many records I have where the former credit appears. I mean, there must be a story there.
    From what I've read he's the sort of guy who thinks he is no mere A&R person.

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