Is is weird that I've enjoyed "Hot Dog" more than much of the rest of that album?
The one that annoys me the most is "Fool in the Rain." Played way too often on the radio back in the day, aimless guitar solo, and same basic 'riff' as the "This Bud's For You" Budweiser song in all those 1980s TV commercials.
I agree. Hot Dog is a fun song, gets me hopping. Fool in the Rain is annoying, my least favorite on the album, maybe because I heard it 18,346 times on the radio. I love the trippiness of Carouselambra. Probably contributed to my later love of the green stuff (which I then still later overcame).Originally Posted by profusion
There was no missed opportunity. The well was exhausted, Bonham died and they did - thanks to Percy's integrity - the one thing that secured them a legendary status, the one thing that all those great 70's bands should have done: they quit.
In Through The Outdoor is much better than its reputation. It is a token of a band that understands its fall and turns it into a weapon. I'm gonna crawl is brillant, precisely because it bears the awareness of a last, concluding statement.
As I say, I basically like Hot Dog other than the guitar solo, which was well conceived but exceptionally poorly executed. I also agree about Fool in the Rain being overplayed, but over the years I haven't had this one continually pounded into me like All My Love, so I can enjoy it when I hear it. And I actually like the guitar solo with the octafuzz effect. So this song doesn't bug me that much, but I can see it bugging others, especially if overplayed.
A lot of truth in these statements.
Bill
The "missed opportunity" from the original post is referring to Zep not utilizing the classical prowess of John Paul Jones. He had the classical training
to have taken Zep into progressive rock in way Wakeman or Banks did with YES or Genesis.
There was a vid I posted in the original post that has been taken down. It was a bootleg concert where Jone takes a huge classical solo during a Zeppelin concert. I doubt many have ever heard this. I suspect Page didn't want to take the band in that direction, but might have had a curiosity about it... hence his attempt at playing with Squire and White post Zep in XYZ.
So again, the missed opportunity is strictly musically speaking... not popularity, financial etc...
My original post re posted:
Rarely is LZ considered one of the premier progressive rock groups or included in the big 5 etc... in prog circles. Certainly they toyed around with the concept with Stairway, In the Light, No Quarter, Achilles, Kashmir etc..
While most would argue they were the premier hard rock band, they certainly could have explored the outer fringes of progressive rock had they really utilized the talents of John Paul Jones.
Around the 8 minute mark Jones shows a side of his keyboard playing never revealed on any LZ album projects. It might be that Jimmy Page did not want to take the band in this direction, but one cannot wonder how the band might have developed into a much more progressive band had JP Jones been given greater creative latitude to explore his classical interests. At that point, would it have been John Bonham that would have held the band back maybe not having the more jazzy chops that were status quo in that era of elite prog drummers such as Bruford, Collins, Palmer, Barlow etc. ?
Why would that be a missed opportunity? Just because someone had a classical training, wouldn't mean he would be able to incorporate classical influences in his music, nor would it mean he would be interested in doing so. Classical musicians are trained in performing classical music, not directly in composing.
I suppose LZ just created the music they wanted to create, including John Paul Jones. Even if he played a classical solo during a concert, that doesn't mean he wanted to do this on a record. It might be just a moment to show he could do it, like to prove himself, just like many other hard-rock artists incorporate some classical soloing during concerts, for instance 'Beethoven', by Rainbow.
Sheesh. See that Led Zeppelin? - boy, did they ever miss the boat. They really could have been prog contenders. Well, at any rate, outer fringes of prog contenders. But instead, what did they do?
Bet they're really kicking themselves for missing out on that musical opportunity.
In other news, rumour has it that Glenn Gould was always miffed that he'd never had the chance to play Hammond Organ in a prog band, thus failing to fulfil all the early promise he showed when he was doing his classical music training.
The best response in an otherwise ridiculous thread.
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down.'- Bob Newhart
Never thought of ITTOD as a good Zeppelin album but it's not bad. I like In The Evening, Carouselambrs, Fool In The Rain, and that's about it. Fool is just a strange Zep track. That Samba/Carnival thing is cool in an unexpected way. Carousel sounds prog to me (in a twisted sorta way). It's worth keeping.
Coda, I've never heard actually. I've thought of buying the CD years ago but for whatever reason it was always overpriced. 15-18 dollars for an album of afterthoughts, no thanks. I have it queued up on Youtube. Will listen to it later and post some thoughts on it.
Ok, I've heard half the album. I'm an idiot. Should have bought it. We're Gonna Groove, Walters Walk, Ozone Baby, Darlene. Worth the price of admission. I haven't even finished the slbum.
Given that these are outtakes and leftovers, the only song that really bothers me is Bonzo's Montreaux, which gets a bit tedious. I don't spin the album often, but I otherwise like the material here, for what it is. Always loved Darlene, I know many hate it, but it always made me smile. Ozone baby is another favorite, as is Wearing and Tearing.
Bill
But that's the point, isn't it? As is well documented (and has pointed out repeatedly in this thread), Zeppelin did harness JPJ's creative abilities when Page was trapped in the arms of Morpheus during the late 70s, and presumably that included his 'classical prowess' and all. The fact that Jones then chose by and large not to write classically-inspired music for ITTOD tends to suggest that your point is entirely moot. Jones and the others neither wanted to go down a Yes/Genesis-esque inspired path, nor, one suspects, was the musical climate of 1978/79 particularly conducive to doing so. There was, therefore, no opportunity to miss, and the very success of ITTOD on its release, especially in the US, tends to bear this out.
Well, lots of sensible posts on the thread (I learned a few things), but then again, look at who started it (maybe a different title might've been advisable)The best response in an otherwise ridiculous thread.
my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.
Suppose JPJ was able to move the band in a more symphonic direction.... would that not have been interesting to hear what Zeppelin could have come up with?
Well, lots of sensible posts on the thread (I learned a few things), but then again, look at who started it (maybe a different title might've been advisable)
Suppose Rick Wakeman had joined Led Zeppelin after he split from YES and was encouraged to write prolifically along with the other guys? What could that have brought to the band? It surely would have been big news at the time.
In reality, when JPJ was essentially given the reigns, they came up with ITTOD, instead of LZ breaking into new territory as a band cutting new and exciting musical ground in the spirit of the great prog rock acts of the 70's. It didn't happen, but it could have. The parts were there and in place. Page must have been somewhat of a YES fan or he wouldn't have played around with the idea of Squire, White, XYZ.
I do think there was a missed opportunity here.... because a great album could have been made .... and possibly saved the life of John Bonham.
Tracks like "In the Light", Achilles Last Stand", "Ten Years Gone", "No Quarter", even Stairway showed they had some interest in more progressive pieces. In some ways it would seem a more logical progression for a band to venture into rather than the mediocrity that became ITTOD.
Is "Kashmir" not prog rock, and if not, why not? I'd argue it influenced as many 2nd gen prog bands as any single thing Yes or Genesis did.
Zeppelin continually resisted being boxed into a genre. There are plenty of prog rock moments throughout the Zeppelin catalog, but they were more eclectic than most of the mainstream prog bands. It's also ridiculous calling them a "metal" band, even though they also helped pioneer that genre.
I heard all of Coda. I should have it if I call myself a Zeppelin fan. If you take the best of ITTOD and Coda, and make compilation you've a damn fine Led Zeppelin album.
BTW: Just heard Hey Hey What Can I Say. Why was that song never included on a Zep album?
It's from the LZIII era and was the B side to Immigrant Song IIRC. I'm not sure if any explanation was ever given but it may have been considered too soft or lightweight. I quite like it myself.
Not just a Genesis fanboy.
Along with Traveling Riverside Blues. They should have put those two songs on Coda. I'd replace Since I've Been Living You and Bonzo's Thing with TRB and HHWCIS.
Yeah, Darlene was the "single" back in 1982. Loved the riff, Page's solo, Jones' piano solo and how the song swings at the end. Always though it was a great song. Coda, as an album, I thought was solid and it's even better since Page remastered it and added more material to it.
Bill
She'll be standing on the bar soon
With a fish head and a harpoon
and a fake beard plastered on her brow.
Travelling Riverside Blues and Hey Hey What Can I Do were both added to the remastered Coda album along with several other tracks.
Bill
She'll be standing on the bar soon
With a fish head and a harpoon
and a fake beard plastered on her brow.
^ I didn't know. Now I do. So I need Coda.
Just gave Coda a fresh spin, the remaster that includes Hey Hey, Riverside, White Summer/Black Mountain Side and Baby Come on Home. The only songs that left me flat on this spin were Walter's Walk and Baby Come on Home. The rest is pretty decent, though rarely perfect. Was surprised how much I liked Bonzo's Montreaux, though it's not one I'd want to hear a lot. In its reissued form, I'd say this is a pretty decent album of what are admittedly outtakes and leftovers. A fitting "coda", imo, to a career that missed few, if any, opportunities.
Bill
If his solo albums are anythign to go by, "prolific songwriting" is the last thing you want from Rick Wakeman. I maintain he was at his best when he was embroidering, if you will, the songs that were put forth by Mssrs. Anderson, Squire, and Howe.
I wouldn't necessarily assume Page was a Yes fan on the basis of the XYZ project. As has been said, I think that was more a case of three musicians, who were in a pair of bands that kinda bit the dust at about the same time, looking for work. That's the real truth. I think it must have been strange to be in that kind of situation, you've spent the entire last decade and more playing in one band, suddenly that band doesn't exist, what do you do? It must be like losing a longtime job and not knowing where your next paycheck is going to come from.In reality, when JPJ was essentially given the reigns, they came up with ITTOD, instead of LZ breaking into new territory as a band cutting new and exciting musical ground in the spirit of the great prog rock acts of the 70's. It didn't happen, but it could have. The parts were there and in place. Page must have been somewhat of a YES fan or he wouldn't have played around with the idea of Squire, White, XYZ.
So, you get a couple manager types talking and they say "Maybe your client can get together with my client and we'll see what happens". And getting people from two different well known bands, that probably made for good copy in Melody Maker, Rolling Stone, and The Enemy...er, I mean the NME.
How would it have saved John Bonham's life?! It wasn't the questionable (or not) musical direction the band took on the last album, but rather the drinking. It's been said that the binge he wanted that finally did him in was the result of him being worried about reprisals of whichever sort when the band returned to the US for their upcoming tour (for those not in the know, very succinctly: Zep manager Peter Grant and a couple of his goons basically nearly beat a man to death backstage at the band's ultimate or penultimate US show in Oakland, and Bonzo was reportedly worried about that coming back to bite them in the ass). Thus, Bonham died as a result of extracurricular matters that had nothing to do with the music.I do think there was a missed opportunity here.... because a great album could have been made .... and possibly saved the life of John Bonham.
Yeah, but I think there was always an interest in more basic forms of music, whether it be blues, rock n roll, whatever, that also interested the members of Zeppelin, and thus they always seemed to come back to that.Tracks like "In the Light", Achilles Last Stand", "Ten Years Gone", "No Quarter", even Stairway showed they had some interest in more progressive pieces. In some ways it would seem a more logical progression for a band to venture into rather than the mediocrity that became ITTOD.
And has been said, besides Bonham's drinking, you had Page's heroin problem. Also, and I'm reiterating what others have said, this was 1979, not 1974. I think at the time, a lot of people viewed certain musical trends of the early 70's to be just that, something they did a few years earlier, and now they were interested in doing something different, if possible, making "music of the 1980's". Everyone was concerned with, at best, trying to stay ahead of the curve or at least staying contemporary, and the general consensus in the mainstream rock music world (which, in the end, is where Zeppelin existed) was that you weren't going to get that done by continuing with the art rock trend.
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