Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 37

Thread: Coincidence or Theft?

  1. #1
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    6,676

    Coincidence or Theft?



  2. #2
    Member Zeuhlmate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Copenhagen, Denmark
    Posts
    4,747
    Thats an old story, I theink we have covered it before, but it is 'theft' allthough to my recollection, it never caused any problems between them.
    Soft Machine 'borrowed' the track but altered/changed the rythm with two bars, som its not the same, but...

    I actually like SF's version better

    Ah - update- , I should listen /read before I write - the SF tune I was was thinking of is 'Days Eye' which is their version of Arjens Bag

    Last edited by Zeuhlmate; 01-31-2017 at 08:56 AM.

  3. #3
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    6,676
    Wow -- that's the one I was thinking of as well. Thanks for clarifying!

  4. #4
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Iowa City IA
    Posts
    1,527
    Maybe Aymeric knows a little more of the back story on this? We have discussed this before on PE, but it is just weird. If Ratledge wanted to cover McL's tune why not just cover it. Why claim authorship? To add to the confusion I believe the tune also appears as "Follow your Heart" on other records. I love both versions BTW...

  5. #5
    Member Burley Wright's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Columbus, GA
    Posts
    70
    Not necessarily prog but still...

    From 1969:


    From 1970:

  6. #6
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Fluffy Cloud
    Posts
    3,627
    I don't think the Soft Machine tune sounds anything like the McLaughlin tune. I mean, there's a similar movement in the bass line. But so what?
    Steve F.

    www.waysidemusic.com
    www.cuneiformrecords.com

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    Any time any one speaks to me about any musical project, the one absolute given is "it will not make big money". [tip of the hat to HK]

    "You run a great label, but sometimes you go out of your way to be a jerk." - Jed Levin

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  7. #7
    Member Zeuhlmate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Copenhagen, Denmark
    Posts
    4,747
    Quote Originally Posted by Burley Wright View Post
    Not necessarily prog but still...
    Yes Buddy stole that one
    "Buddy Miles took pretty much all the guitar lines that Michael and I wrote and used them in 'Them Changes,'" says Nivison. "It is the same song with a different vocal."
    http://www.richieunterberger.com/nyrr.html

  8. #8
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    6,676
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    I don't think the Soft Machine tune sounds anything like the McLaughlin tune. I mean, there's a similar movement in the bass line. But so what?
    It's not just the bass line. The sax counter melody, the changes, and the whole feel of "Arjen's Bag" is nearly identical to "Day's Eye."

    But that's okay. "Good artists borrow. Great artists steal." - Picasso or Miles Davis, depending on who you believe

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post

    But that's okay. "Good artists borrow. Great artists steal." - Picasso or Miles Davis, depending on who you believe
    Actually, it's Stravinsky I've always heard that attributed to. Of course, Iggy (as well as many other "classical" composers) were known for lifting melodies out of traditional folk songs. Charles Ives was fond of using patriotic songs and hymns.

    There's a lot of rock and pop songs that are lifted out of the classical music world, as well. A Lover's Concerto is based on the Minuet in G Major from the Anna Magdalena Notebook, which is now said to have been composed by Christian Petzold.

    And then there's things like Too Much Thinking by Triumph, which is a total crib of Neon Knights by Black Sabbath. And Breaking Us In Two by Joe Jackson was totally appropriated from Day After Day by Badfinger.

    And let's don't start on Led Zeppelin.

  10. #10
    1972:



    1974:

    Confirmed Bachelors: the dramedy hit of 1883...

  11. #11
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    6,676
    It's not a new phenomenon either.



  12. #12
    cunning linguist 3LockBox's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    hiding out in treetops, shouting out rude names
    Posts
    2,058
    I've read where John Williams is a hack.
    Digital playback brought high fidelity to the masses and audiophiles will never forgive it for that

  13. #13
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    6,676
    Quote Originally Posted by 3LockBox View Post
    I've read where John Williams is a hack.
    You jest, but he has been accused of "borrowing" from other composers.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    You jest, but he has been accused of "borrowing" from other composers.
    See also: Andrew Lloyd Webber.
    Confirmed Bachelors: the dramedy hit of 1883...

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Progbear View Post
    See also: Andrew Lloyd Webber.
    Did we ever figure out if Webber stole that one bit from Pink Floyd, or was it the other way around?

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuhlmate View Post
    Thats an old story, I theink we have covered it before, but it is 'theft' allthough to my recollection, it never caused any problems between them.
    Soft Machine 'borrowed' the track but altered/changed the rythm with two bars, som its not the same, but...

    I actually like SF's version better

    Ah - update- , I should listen /read before I write - the SF tune I was was thinking of is 'Days Eye' which is their version of Arjens Bag

    Yes the chords are identical. I believe McLaughlin recorded a more acoustic version of the piece on My Goals Beyond. I recall observing the comparison between the two versions in '74. I recall running across a similar incident with Steve Hackett and Wishbone Ash. Unfortunately I can't recall the track titles, but I do remember an instrumental track from an 80's Wishbone Ash release having total identical melody lines and chord changes of a Steve Hackett instrumental from one of his live albums. To close to be a coincidence. If I'm not mistaken Steve Hackett may have recorded a studio version of the piece on "Till We Have Faces" or possibly a different one.

  17. #17
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Westchester, NY
    Posts
    10,010
    1974 (from the musical "The Magic Show"), go to :41 :



    1976, go to 6:39 :

    Last edited by JKL2000; 02-21-2017 at 02:54 PM.

  18. #18
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Westchester, NY
    Posts
    10,010
    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    You jest, but he has been accused of "borrowing" from other composers.
    Pretty convincing, but he borrowed from the best!

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    Did we ever figure out if Webber stole that one bit from Pink Floyd, or was it the other way around?
    If you're referring to that part of "Echoes," that preceded Phantom. But, I think "stole" is a bit harsh. I recall it being borrowed and acknowledged as a respectful borrowing. Maybe even a tribute.
    "A conspiracy of silence speaks louder than words."

    - Dr. Winston O'Boogie

  20. #20
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Westchester, NY
    Posts
    10,010
    Quote Originally Posted by ronmac View Post
    If you're referring to that part of "Echoes," that preceded Phantom. But, I think "stole" is a bit harsh. I recall it being borrowed and acknowledged as a respectful borrowing. Maybe even a tribute.
    I think it was done unconsciously. Don't believe it was with a knowledge of where it was from, and certainly not a tribute.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Enid View Post
    Yes the chords are identical. I believe McLaughlin recorded a more acoustic version of the piece on My Goals Beyond.
    He changed the title from "Arjen's Bag" to "Follow Your Heart" and recorded it there, and also with Joe Farrell on the album Joe Farrell Quartet for CTI.

  22. #22
    Another classic Deep Purple : Child In Time , uses the intro melody of the track Bombay Calling by It's A Beautiful Day. From memory they openly admitted the source.
    Vander claiming that Oldfield "borrowed " La Dawotsin to create Tubular Bells.
    Last edited by alucard; 02-18-2017 at 05:44 AM.

  23. #23
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    6,676
    Quote Originally Posted by alucard View Post
    Vander claiming that Oldfield "borrowed " La Dawotsin to create Tubular Bells.
    That seems less likely.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by ronmac View Post
    If you're referring to that part of "Echoes," that preceded Phantom. But, I think "stole" is a bit harsh. I recall it being borrowed and acknowledged as a respectful borrowing. Maybe even a tribute.
    Echoes preceded Phantom Of The Opera, yes, but from what I gather, Webber claimed the bit in question was actually an allusion to something from Jesus Christ Superstar, which I believe preceded Echoes.

    But yes, we're talkign a relative common music device, so really I was being a bit facetious. What makes the two things sound similar is that the two chords the chromatic occur over appear to be the same.

    Vander claiming that Oldfield "borrowed " La Dawotsin to create Tubular Bells.
    That seems less likely.
    I remember reading that Vander said that Magma were recording MDK at about the same time that Oldfield was making Tubular Bells, at the same studio, but I think it's since been proven that's not true.

    But I do recall that Vander said that's why Magma's sound changed so radically between MDK and Köhntarkösz, because of Tubular Bells.

  25. #25
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    3,197
    A similar descending chord progression can be found on Rick Wakeman's 'Judas Iscariot'- it's on church organ too so somewhat closer to Lloyd Webber's 'Phantom...'. But it is indeed a fairly common one, I'd have thought- don't know why Waters was so put out by it (see the very savage ALW reference on 'It's A Miracle'!).

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •