New Thinking Plague! Track from "Hoping Against Hope"

[TCC]

If you are a "discerning" listener (which you must be, if you're here!), then I believe there's nothing you can't understand, if it's explained not using music theory jargon. So, don't be embarrassed to ask us to explain what we're talking about. I'm sure there are others lurking who'd appreciate it, as well.

Perfect, thanks!.

Mike, Friends:
My personal story with T.P. began around 1990 I think, a year in which I made a trade of some cds and lps: "In This Life" and a cdr of "Moonsongs" were included in the batch.

- I was immediately trapped by the beauty of the music, by the organized chaos, by the small-great details discovered and the new ones with each listening for example!. -

Years later, when I was more active writing reviews for the argentinian magazine Mellotron, I had to do some to a group of bands of Cuneiform Records: "A History Of Madness" and "In Extremis" were included.

Mike, maybe you remember or maybe not, it doesn´t matter, but thanks to Joyce mainly and Steve, we shared some good emails that can be compared to some posts of this thread and about so many things, information, thoughts, etc. about these 2 excellent albums.

I remember your humility, your patience and passion when answering to my questions and approaches to your music and going a little further adding useful details and information for my reviews: for me, it was indispensable this contact with you! ... Gracias!!.

Finally, I think I did a good job and the reviews were published in the magazine ... a unique and beautiful one btw !.

So, Mike, thanks again!.

Pura Vida!.
ps: have to purchase 'Hoping Against Hope'.

[MJ-Plagued]

Less of a review, and more of "first impressions." As a music listener, I enjoy a pretty diverse array of music. This album scratches the itch I have for interesting music that I know won't reveal all of its charms on the first listen, let alone the 10th. If I had to describe the music in one word, it would be "angular," because that is how it makes me feel when I listen to it. And just to be clear, that is a compliment.

I have a similar itch, and am always trying to scratch it. Glad I'm succeeding for some! As for "angular", if you mean it as a compliment, thus will we take it! But you've probably seen that word used by some when our melodies and motifs move in larger intervals, and shift outside certain standard expectations. I think people need to open their ears to different kinds of note movement, and of course, to other kinds of 'tonality'. Today's pop music is basically monochromatic in terms of these things - melodies are mostly recycled clichés over recycled, but newly re-"produced", chord progressions and grooves. Folks are missing out on a universe of other musical possibilities (stepping off soap box, now ).

I'm sure I'm not the first one to say this, but Elaine di Falco's vocals remind me a bit of Annette Peacock's vocal style. I enjoyed her presentation of the lyrics, but on first listen, I didn't pay too close attention to the content of the lyrics themselves. That will come later.

I'm not really a fan of AP, and hardly know her music and singing. But from the little I just looked up, the only similarity I hear is a similarity in timbre in Elaine's lower range. And to my ear Elaine is much more precise in her pitch and rhythm, which is a requirement for TP music.

There's a lot more to digest in this music, and I'm looking forward to continuing the journey. This makes me want to get up and move in odd ways...

Thanks to MJ-Plagued for making music like this...

Mike

You're very welcome, Mike. It's a sort of compulsion which can'r be helped... You'd be surprised at some of the "dancing" that a few intrepid persons have done at TP shows in the past!

[MJ-Plagued]

Perfect, thanks!.

Mike, Friends:
My personal story with T.P. began around 1990 I think, a year in which I made a trade of some cds and lps: "In This Life" and a cdr of "Moonsongs" were included in the batch.

- I was immediately trapped by the beauty of the music, by the organized chaos, by the small-great details discovered and the new ones with each listening for example!. -

Years later, when I was more active writing reviews for the argentinian magazine Mellotron, I had to do some to a group of bands of Cuneiform Records: "A History Of Madness" and "In Extremis" were included.

Mike, maybe you remember or maybe not, it doesn´t matter, but thanks to Joyce mainly and Steve, we shared some good emails that can be compared to some posts of this thread and about so many things, information, thoughts, etc. about these 2 excellent albums.

I remember your humility, your patience and passion when answering to my questions and approaches to your music and going a little further adding useful details and information for my reviews: for me, it was indispensable this contact with you! ... Gracias!!.

Finally, I think I did a good job and the reviews were published in the magazine ... a unique and beautiful one btw !.

So, Mike, thanks again!.

Pura Vida!.
ps: have to purchase 'Hoping Against Hope'.

Thank YOU, Tomás, for your support and helping us 'carry the torch', as it were. I confess I do not remember all this, but if I could read the reveiws, it would jog my memory (you know how we are about *reviews*!!). Also, I would love to know what was said in those emails with Steve and Joyce. We don't usually get much in the way of feedback on the actual muisc from the "firm". But of course, actions speak louder than words.

[TCC]

Thank YOU, Tomás, for your support and helping us 'carry the torch', as it were.

You`re welcome Mike!.

... Also, I would love to know what was said in those emails with Steve and Joyce. We don't usually get much in the way of feedback on the actual muisc from the "firm". But of course, actions speak louder than words.

Mike, I think there is a confusion here and I didn't express myself in the best way:

When I wrote:
"... thanks to Joyce mainly and Steve, we shared some good emails that can be compared to some posts of this thread and about so many things, information, thoughts, etc. about these 2 excellent albums."

I was referring to us, Mike and Tomás, not with Joyce and/or Steve !.

I think that Steve gave me your email and Joyce was my contact at Cuneiform for "press and media requests" as today:
http://www.cuneiformrecords.com/contact.html

I confess I do not remember all this, but if I could read the reveiws, it would jog my memory (you know how we are about *reviews*!!) ... But of course, actions speak louder than words.

Remember that it was May 2004 !.

Look who is at the cover page of that number ... RIP!.

Mellotron cover page.jpg


T.P..jpg


Mellotron best of 2003.jpg

I think that the review of "In Extremix" was used in another site ... LCDM for example, sorry, can`t remember!.

I finally want to add that thanks to YOU Mike and T.P., thank you for keep believing in your art and in your music ... first 35 years and counting!!.


Pura Vida!!

[Phlakaton]

TCC - In complete agreement with your thoughts too - Thank you Mike and TP!

[MJ-Plagued]

You guys keep thanking us! Thank YOU(s) for being pur 'fans'.

[zombywoof]

Hi guys!

Mike Johnson and Elaine Di Falco were guests on my radio program this week ...

hope you enjoy!

https://www.mixcloud.com/progrockdee...aine-di-falco/

[aith01]

Apologies in advance if I should have started a new thread for this...

Been listening to some TP tracks from a few different albums via the Cuneiform Bandcamp page, and have decided I'm going to pull the trigger: I will be ordering Hoping Against Hope on CD.

However, I'd like to get a second album by them, and was considering Decline And Fall. Would this be a good companion disc? Or do any of you folks have other recommendations?

[Baribrotzer]

A History of Madness. It possibly has more variety than any of their other releases: everything from stuff like a more dissonant version of Yes, to a couple of ambient selections made with treated sound, to several piano miniatures. And a sort of implied overarching concept - not anything tight or easily explained, so much as a sense that those pieces go together in some way and all belong on the same album.

[NogbadTheBad]

Decline And Fall is an excellent companion album for Hoping Against Hope. Similar line-up and broadly similar vibe. Pretty much all of the last 5 are excellent and if you enjoy HAH I'd suggest you'll probably end up getting all of those.

[moecurlythanu]

Yeah, D&F is a good complimentary choice.

[aith01]

A History of Madness. It possibly has more variety than any of their other releases: everything from stuff like a more dissonant version of Yes, to a couple of ambient selections made with treated sound, to several piano miniatures. And a sort of implied overarching concept - not anything tight or easily explained, so much as a sense that those pieces go together in some way and all belong on the same album.

Thanks for the insights! Helpful as always. That does sound very interesting... I've bookmarked it so that I won't forget; thinking I will probably buy the digital version from Bandcamp, along with In Extremis, down the road (perhaps after next paycheck).

Decline And Fall is an excellent companion album for Hoping Against Hope. Similar line-up and broadly similar vibe. Pretty much all of the last 5 are excellent and if you enjoy HAH I'd suggest you'll probably end up getting all of those.

Yeah, D&F is a good complimentary choice.

One of the things that piqued my interest in Decline And Fall was that it has Kimara Sajn on it too. I like what I've heard of his solo stuff (and related projects), so hearing him in the context of Thinking Plague is something I think I'd like. Of course, I also want to hear the TP discs with Bob Drake on them too.

Thanks for the assistance, gentlemen. Much appreciated.

[Sputnik]

Decline And Fall is an excellent companion album for Hoping Against Hope. Similar line-up and broadly similar vibe. Pretty much all of the last 5 are excellent and if you enjoy HAH I'd suggest you'll probably end up getting all of those.

Yeah, D&F is a good complimentary choice.

I agree with both of these comments. FWIW, I like Decline & Fall better than Hoping Against Hope, so I'd definitely recommend that one.

If you wind up liking both of these, you could do worse than simply working your way backwards in their catalog. I'm not personally a huge fan of History of Madness, but that's more an issue of personal taste than quality. After that (or before that, working backward), you're into In Extrimis, which is considered a classic by many, and justifiably so, imo.

Then you have my personal favorite In This Life, which to me is one of the most tuneful and accessible of their albums, but also for me packs a tremendous emotional punch. And I really love the ST/Moonsongs compilation that rounds out the TP catalog. Moonsongs is an underrated gem, imo, and I've really enjoyed it over the years.

So, you're on the right track, just keep working backward and you'll be fine. Hope you enjoy the ones you wind up getting!

Bill

[Phlakaton]

Personally I like History of Madness more than Decline - but they both are great compliments to the new one. Just had HOM on over the weekend... gets better every time I play it!

[boilk]

A History of Madness is my favourite Plague! Just love that album. It has such a bizarre, off-kilter, experimental and yet extremely listenable feel to it. A lot of people love In Extremis, as do I, but AHOM is the one that I go back to, the most.

neil

[Kcrimso]

After Hoping Against Hope I would get Decline And Fall or In Extremis. A History Of Madness is not among my favourite TP albums.

[Scrotum Scissor]

A History Of Madness is not among my favourite TP albums.

Nor was it mine initially. It was the followup to what I regarded as a 'paradigmatic' release in contemporary progressive (In Extremis), yet it contrasted drastically. I remember thinking (!) on first listen that Mike J. had culled the spirit and tone from the "Kingdom Come" piece (of I.E.) and extended it into an entire record. It was overall more dense and dissonant, still also far more "abstract" in approach to both harmony and structure - and with an impossibly sombre vibe to it. Of course, one has to grasp the era of its conception; this was post-9/11, a dreadful source of unwilling inspiration which I suppose had a sort of "meta-influence" on the Catharist theme of (much of) the material. Surprisingly, although TP's darkest effort in storytelling, A History of Madness is also arguably their lightest release in terms of bottom and volume; there's a notable lack of drumming on most of it (courtesy the great Dave Shamrock, who was previously with SGM), and only "Lux Lucet" draws upon their erstwhile penchant for hard-hitting metre. There is some stunningly beautiful music going on, though - "Last Aether for Saxophone & le Gouffre" must be heard to be believed, and "Rapture of the Deep" remains one of the band's finest achievements ever. Yet I'd dare say the album as such is best remembered for its astonishing variety in shape and colour.

I have a seriously hard time ranking TP's albums; they're all coherent products of a mindset but also obviously of various sets of development and personal impressions emanating from the times. By the time of Decline and Fall and Hope, their music advances so way beyond the imaginable standard fare of "progressive rock" yet still epitomizing what the original idea was all about, that it's pretty difficult to contain a sense of objectivity towards its worth. Ironically then, perhaps, that one might as easily see them as an effective end of possibilities as a continuation of them; although there are other bizarrely "complex" acts out there, aims and objectives with TP seem altogether singular and idiosyncratic. This being said, they'll probably remain one of my very fave modern "rock" groups. Shit, did I just write that?

[Phlakaton]

Nor was it mine initially. It was the followup to what I regarded as a 'paradigmatic' release in contemporary progressive (In Extremis), yet it contrasted drastically. I remember thinking (!) on first listen that Mike J. had culled the spirit and tone from the "Kingdom Come" piece (of I.E.) and extended it into an entire record. It was overall more dense and dissonant, still also far more "abstract" in approach to both harmony and structure - and with an impossibly sombre vibe to it. Of course, one has to grasp the era of its conception; this was post-9/11, a dreadful source of unwilling inspiration which I suppose had a sort of "meta-influence" on the Catharist theme of (much of) the material. Surprisingly, although TP's darkest effort in storytelling, A History of Madness is also arguably their lightest release in terms of bottom and volume; there's a notable lack of drumming on most of it (courtesy the great Dave Shamrock, who was previously with SGM), and only "Lux Lucet" draws upon their erstwhile penchant for hard-hitting metre. There is some stunningly beautiful music going on, though - "Last Aether for Saxophone & le Gouffre" must be heard to be believed, and "Rapture of the Deep" remains one of the band's finest achievements ever. Yet I'd dare say the album as such is best remembered for its astonishing variety in shape and colour.

I have a seriously hard time ranking TP's albums; they're all coherent products of a mindset but also obviously of various sets of development and personal impressions emanating from the times. By the time of Decline and Fall and Hope, their music advances so way beyond the imaginable standard fare of "progressive rock" yet still epitomizing what the original idea was all about, that it's pretty difficult to contain a sense of objectivity towards its worth. Ironically then, perhaps, that one might as easily see them as an effective end of possibilities as a continuation of them; although there are other bizarrely "complex" acts out there, aims and objectives with TP seem altogether singular and idiosyncratic. This being said, they'll probably remain one of my very fave modern "rock" groups. Shit, did I just write that?

Since you put so much into this post - THIS ^ "Rapture of the Deep" is stunningly beautiful. Even though I've heard the album more times than I can count - the last round was quite cool... I never really noticed the lack of drums until this time - and tracks like "Last Aether for Saxophone & le Gouffre" had way more resonance for me. I know what you mean about ranking TP albums - its a crazy game for me - depends on my mood for sure.

[trondis23]

After Hoping Against Hope I would get Decline And Fall or In Extremis. A History Of Madness is not among my favourite TP albums.

I think A History Of Madness is one of their best. I like it more than Hoping Against Hope. It has more variation. HAH is a bit samey.

[Baribrotzer]

there's a notable lack of drumming on most of [A History of Madness] (courtesy the great Dave Shamrock, who was previously with SGM)

Not so much a lack, as that Dave treated the material as if it were a piece of classical music and played exactly and only what Mike wrote down as a suggested drum part; he also played multiple percussion parts at the same time, switching between sticks, tambourine, and shakers mid-phrase. Dave is a serious minimalist on drums; I've heard that Nils, Dan and Carla had to argue him into playing every fill he did on the first SGM album. And AHoM was then mixed like a classical suite rather than a rock record - there's an extreme degree of clarity and you can hear every note, but it doesn't have all that much punch.