Proto prog thread

[Levgan]

It should be, along with Ancient Grease's Women and Children First.

I was just going to say that I prefer the related Ancient Grease LP. It may be lower on prog content, but richer on energy and inspiration IMO. Big Sleep, for me, fell into "OK" category", Ancient Grease in "good, sometimes excellent".

[enigmatic]

...and The Dog That Bit People.

This will be a loooong list.

Mogrooves, I sent you IM. Can you please respond to it?

[enigmatic]

Big Sleep -Bluebell Wood
Ancient Grease's Women and Children First
The Dog That Bit People

AFAIR, we considered these 3 albums to the list in 2004. They were rejected.
There is a reason why they are not on PA. Plus, please check their overall ratings on Gnosis.

[enigmatic]

That would be neat if only to see how my tastes changed (if at all) for the last 13 years

Unfortunately I lost the full spreadsheet with all individuals votes (hard drive crash). :-(
I only have the final list with the statistics (# of voters / average rating per album).

[enigmatic]

I completed my research, went over all submitted recommendations. I picked 20+ titles, shared the list with couple other PE members to get second opinion. I tried to be objective, I only included 1 title that I personally recommended. I used the following criteria to pick these 20+ titles:
- needed strong "progressive" association, either listed on PA or referenced as progressive album on other websites/blogs/R.M.P. archives etc
- within the timeline 1970-72
- I used the benchmark to determine if the album is considered by other "experts" as essential: Gnosis average rate: close to 10 or above, PA average: close to 3.5 and above.

Here is the list of top contenders ordered by Gnosis rating.
Mad Curry - S/T (1970, Bel) (G:11.09)
East Of Eden - Snafu (1970,UK) (G:10.57, PA:4.17)
Norman Haines Band - Den of Iniquity (1971, UK) (G:10.56)
Thors Hammer - S/T (1971, Den) (G:10.41, PA:4.06)
Sweet Slag - Tracking With Close-Ups (1971, UK) (G:10)
Warm Dust - Peace for Our Time (1971, UK) (G:9.98, PA:3.42)
Nosferatu - S/T (1970, Ger) (G:9.97, PA:3.52)
Bachdenkel - Lemmings (1970, UK) (G:9.96,PA:3.27)
Aardvark - S/T (1970, UK) (G:9.95, PA:3.46)
Day of Phoenix - Wide Open N Way (1970, Den) (G:9.9, PA:3.61)
Steel Mill - Green Eyed God (1972,UK) (G:9.86, PA:3.89)
Hannibal - S/T (1970,UK) (G:9.84)
Graphite - Chestnut Loke (1971, UK) (G:9.78)
Gygafo - Legend of The Kingfisher (1973,UK) (G:9.76, PA:2.87)
Warm Dust - S/T (1971,UK) (G:9.48,PA:3.94)
Raw Material - S/T (1970,UK) (PA:9.46, PA:3.6)
Below the benchmarks:
Deep Feeling - S/T (1971,UK) (G:9.48)
Spring - 2 (1972, UK) (G:9.46, PA:3.25)

[nosebone]

Hmmmm, I have them all and will re listen.

actually, I'm missing these two - Nosferatu - S/T (1970, Ger) (G:9.97, PA:3.52)
Bachdenkel - Lemmings (1970, UK) (G:9.96,PA:3.27)

[enigmatic]

Chris, just so we are on the same page - not all of them are essential to me personally. I wouldn't include some of the above titles in my Top 100, but they were recommended by others. I wanted to be objective and give the full picture. What is essential to me, not necessarily is essential to others and vice versa. It's a matter of musical taste.

[Baribrotzer]

For the last few weeks, I've been looking at this thread with some small irritation, thinking to myself, "What is the point whether it is or isn't; or what it is or isn't? The question is, 'Is it good music? What does it sound like? Do you enjoy it, or recommend it?' The rest is much hair-splitting about very little."

Then I realized what the point was: To find a list that a couple dozen reasonably knowledgeable fans can agree upon, one that will serve as a good overview of the sub-genre, that won't contain outliers broadening the list to unwieldy and confusing dimensions, and that could guide someone who's developed an interest and is looking to explore proto-prog further. Something that's reasonably focused on the mainstream of the style, and thus might contain Atomic Rooster but not Jan Dukes de Grey, and that wouldn't take years of time and bales of money to explore and acquire.

And that isn't a bad goal.

[enigmatic]

Then I realized what the point was: To find a list that a couple dozen reasonably knowledgeable fans can agree upon, one that will serve as a good overview of the sub-genre, that won't contain outliers broadening the list to unwieldy and confusing dimensions, and that could guide someone who's developed an interest and is looking to explore proto-prog further. Something that's reasonably focused on the mainstream of the style, and thus might contain Atomic Rooster but not Jan Dukes de Grey, and that wouldn't take years of time and bales of money to explore and acquire.

Wow, awesome post. Thank you so such. This is exactly what we are trying to accomplish.
The problem is that the perfect list of Top 100 essential proto-prog albums cannot be compiled.
Why? Our individual musical tastes are different and mostly, we have a different view what proto-prog is.

By reducing the timeline to 69-72 and limiting the selection to lesser known bands, we simply won't be able to come up with 100 essential albums.
They simply don't exist.
We are digging really deep and what we can come up with? Hannibal? Gygafo? Graphite? C'mon, these are not essential albums.
- there are about 30 essential late 60's / early 70s obscure proto-prog albums that we all can agree on.
- about 30 which are very good to excellent, but each of us will point to different group of albums.
That's all folks - 60 albums. And we already have these 60 albums on the list that Chris (nosebone) posted on Page 1.

So, IMO the best way to clean-up the list is to reduce it to let's say 75 albums. This way the list will be solid - "a good overview of the sub-genre, that won't contain outliers broadening the list to unwieldy and confusing dimensions."

[Baribrotzer]

Dungen.

What's pretty damn unique about them, is that they are making songs - *fantastic* ones - as if the entire endeavour of cliché attached to 1971-(and on) had never happened. What if all the best of rock as of 1970 had been accumulated into something completely different from what indeed came after? As such it's not about nostalgia or the "retro authenticity" principle, it's about actual continuity.

Although (to get a bit off this thread's current track) one element of Dungen doesn't date from 1970 at all. The rhythm section tends to have a more or less noticeable flavor of hip-hop - Gustav Estjes had quite an interest in that music as a teenager, and it made its way into his later work. Now I suppose someone could describe those machine-like beats in anachronistic 1970 terms as a sort of proto-krautrock, but they aren't, and aren't meant that way; they're hip-hop, and identifiable as such.

[Zeuhlmate]

For the last few weeks, I've been looking at this thread with some small irritation, thinking to myself, "What is the point whether it is or isn't; or what it is or isn't? The question is, 'Is it good music? What does it sound like? Do you enjoy it, or recommend it?' The rest is much hair-splitting about very little."

Then I realized what the point was: To find a list that a couple dozen reasonably knowledgeable fans can agree upon, one that will serve as a good overview of the sub-genre, that won't contain outliers broadening the list to unwieldy and confusing dimensions, and that could guide someone who's developed an interest and is looking to explore proto-prog further. Something that's reasonably focused on the mainstream of the style, and thus might contain Atomic Rooster but not Jan Dukes de Grey, and that wouldn't take years of time and bales of money to explore and acquire.

And that isn't a bad goal.

costume.jpg

[Scrotum Scissor]

one element of Dungen doesn't date from 1970 at all. The rhythm section tends to have a more or less noticeable flavor of hip-hop - Gustav Estjes had quite an interest in that music as a teenager, and it made its way into his later work. Now I suppose someone could describe those machine-like beats in anachronistic 1970 terms as a sort of proto-krautrock, but they aren't, and aren't meant that way; they're hip-hop, and identifiable as such.

Yes, you've made that point before in here - and it's absolutely true. Which again I bet is part of Ejstes' music's "subconscious" appeal with a lot of younger listeners. The guy did come of musical age digging hip-hop, but then already having grown up exposed to his parents' dusty collection of psychedelia and vintage progressive.

Of course, the basic beat of future rap/hop rhythmic metre was pretty much already in place with certain acts in Afro-American rock in the late 60s/early 70s; Sly, Hayes, Clinton and the lots. But Ejstes has never mentioned listening to that ilk.

[Baribrotzer]

Of course, the basic beat of future rap/hop rhythmic metre was pretty much already in place with certain acts in Afro-American rock in the late 60s/early 70s; Sly, Hayes, Clinton and the lots.

There's a difference, though, in the way that beat actually gets used. An old-school funk drummer would accompany the singer and band like a rock or jazz drummer - varying his beats, adding cymbal crashes, fills, hits, stops, and the like, reacting to and filling out the music. A hip-hop drum program doesn't do that, and a sample can't, but the music is built around it. It's a bit more like, again, krautrock in that.

[Trane]

Yes first album, Atom Heart Mother, Deep Purple in Concert. Will they be in the list?

I'd say no, just like while loving them, I'd not put any Rooster albums either...

I'd maybe consider Purple's Evans-Simper albums, but Purple went on to great popular success.

[Progmatic]

Agreed. and in so doing need to extend the timeline a bit, for things like Cornucopia, Eulenspygel etc.

There are some wonderful continental Europe "proto-prog" options from that period.
For instance Orange Peel, Burnin Red Ivanhoe, Komintern, Ahora Mazda, Alrune Rod, Alain Markusfeld, Rufus Zuphall, Parzival, Virus, Vinegar, Eela Craig, Michal Prokop & Framus 5, Wallenstein, Mythos, Group 1850, Hurdy Gurdy, Klan, Gattch, etc....you can go bananas if you want to. All very good music


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[Levgan]

For instance Orange Peel, Burnin Red Ivanhoe, Komintern, Ahora Mazda, Alrune Rod, Alain Markusfeld, Rufus Zuphall, Parzival, Virus, Vinegar, Eela Craig, Michal Prokop & Framus 5, Wallenstein, Mythos, Group 1850, Hurdy Gurdy, Klan, Gattch

Great list. Those early Alain Markusfeld albums are really special. The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that there can be a separate 100-album list for non-UK bands with various quotients of proto flavor. OK, maybe not 100 if we only go for the cream of the crop, but 50 to 75 easily.

[Calabasas_Trafalgar]

Great list. Those early Alain Markusfeld albums are really special. The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that there can be a separate 100-album list for non-UK bands with various quotients of proto flavor. OK, maybe not 100 if we only go for the cream of the crop, but 50 to 75 easily.

Great idea Lev. Just curious where would you put the UK bands whose LPs were only released in other countries(Diabolus, Sunday, Odin, Message, I Drive, 2066 & Then etc. etc.)?

[Progmatic]

Great idea Lev. Just curious where would you put the UK bands whose LPs were only released in other countries(Diabolus, Sunday, Odin, Message, I Drive, 2066 & Then etc. etc.)?

I think we have the same issue now. Are they considered for U.K. list?


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[Zeuhlmate]

I suppose Hansson & Karlsson is proto-prog of some sorts?

[Calabasas_Trafalgar]

OK, here is my vote. From the original list I would delete:

Abacus-s/t
Black Widow-Sacrifice
Colosseum-Daughter of Time
Fantasy-Beyond the Beyond and Paint a Picture
Frumpy-Frumpy
Titus Groan-s/t
Touch-s/t

and add these:

Family-Music in a Doll's House
Frumpy-All Will be Changed and Frumpy 2
Jonesy-Keeping Up
Raw Material-s/t
Skin Alley-To Pagham and beyond
Don Shinn-both LPs
Cornucopia-Full Horn
Eulenspygel-Ausschuss
Grobschnitt-s/t
Electric Sandwich-s/t
Sunday-s/t
The Way We Live-A Candle for Judith
Public Foot the Roman-s/t
Jericho-s/t
Norman Haines Band-Den of Iniquity
Odin-s/t
Thors Hammer-s/t
Junior's Eyes-Battersea Power Station

[Galactic Bulldozer]

I guess this is too obscure then...

[Svetonio]

Three Danish bands with "proto-prog" sound as per original the mid-seventies' meaning of that tag.

[Calabasas_Trafalgar]

add one more: Five day rain - s/t

[Levgan]

Great idea Lev. Just curious where would you put the UK bands whose LPs were only released in other countries(Diabolus, Sunday, Odin, Message, I Drive, 2066 & Then etc. etc.)?

Logically I think we should assess all specific cases differently. Like, for instance, 2066 & Then, I think, only had a UK singer while the rest of the musicians were German? If so – and my memory may well fail me, sorry if I'm offbase – this one fits well into the continental proto-prog list. Diabolus, on the other hand, were all Englishmen as far as I recall, so despite a German release, I think that band is eligible for the main list.

Don Shinn-both LPs

Like Sweet Slag, this is another artist I haven't heard at the time we made an original list. Yup, deserves to be there for sure.

OK, here is my vote. From the original list I would delete:
...
Frumpy-Frumpy
...
and add these:
...
Frumpy-All Will be Changed and Frumpy 2

Eh, I'm pretty sure the "self-titled" Frumpy LP in the main list is eihter AWBC or 2. In fact I don't think they ever had a self-titled album! If picking one is necessary, I would go with AWBC as it's just completely original and in a world of its own IMO. The second one, while very good musically, had them veering into a more basic heavy prog direction, with an addition of electric guitar and more fleshed-out songs.

[Levgan]

Three bands from Denmark with "proto-prog" sound as per original the mid-seventies' meaning of that tag.

All three solid candidates for a "continental proto-prog" list with Blast Furnace being a borderline classic LP IMO. Freed, I think, was unreleased at the time and only came out on LP in the late 1990s (?) on the Orpheus label, together with the like-minded albums by Polyfeen, Elmira and Vindharpen.