If ELP hadn't "championed" PFM and Banco...

[soundsweird]

In the mid-70's, I was buying just about any album I saw in the import section by an Italian Prog band. But it wasn't until I heard tracks from "Photos of Ghosts" on the radio ("Celebration" and "River of Life") that I knew there was such a thing as Italian Prog. I'm sure that is the case for many of you that are close to my age. I remember reading decades ago that it was Lake who got PFM signed to Manticore, and later Emerson who pulled Banco into the fold. I'm sure I would have discovered Italian Prog at some point, but it probably would have been much later if not for ELP...

[lak611]

Do you have any references to Emerson's and Lake's influence in Banco and PFM getting signed?

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[soundsweird]

I did some googling last night to see what I could find on this, and didn't find much that was in English. The reference I made in the post above was from some 70's music magazine that I had back then. Of course, both groups had already released more than one album in Italy when they were signed to release English-language albums on ELP's Manticore label. PFM's Wikipedia page talks about it briefly, and I found many references to Manticore's signing of both bands.

[AncientChord]

Actually PFM was highly influenced by King Crimson. And it was Peter Sinfield's involvement with ELP's Manticore Records label that is the connection. The idea was to make PFM more of a world prog act, so Sinfield wrote English lyrics to, I believe their first three albums, which were made earlier, with Italian titles, lyrics and vocals. And it worked, making PFM very popular first in England, America, then the rest of the world. But IMO the original Italian albums were superior, and to this day I prefer to listen to them. And I'll never forget seeing the band play at the long gone Golden Bear club in Huntington Beach California to support Chocolate Kings. Great show!

[JeffCarney]

Lake was on the lookout in Italy for artists which could be signed to the Manticore label, and checked out numerous bands.

I guess I'm getting old and grumpy but it seems I am regularly amazed at how stuff I thought was fairly common prog knowledge is unknown here. And yet we have threads on Asia ...

Anyway ... good thread, Soundsweird. Maybe just to clarify it should be clearly noted that you are referencing not PFM or Banco in terms of their original Italian record deals, but Manticore's signing of them and how that brought both (particularly PFM) to more international attention.

[soundsweird]

That PFM Wikipedia page says that PFM came to the attention of Greg Lake while ELP was on an Italian tour, so I think it was Greg who brought Pete and PFM together. And of course Sinfield's "Still" came out on Manticore about the same time as "Photos...". Thanks, Jeff, I knew you'd chime in; tell us how you got into RPI...

[lak611]

Lake was on the lookout in Italy for artists which could be signed to the Manticore label, and checked out numerous bands.

I guess I'm getting old and grumpy but it seems I am regularly amazed at how stuff I thought was fairly common prog knowledge is unknown here. And yet we have threads on Asia ...

Anyway ... good thread, Soundsweird. Maybe just to clarify it should be clearly noted that you are referencing not PFM or Banco in terms of their original Italian record deals, but Manticore's signing of them and how that brought both (particularly PFM) to more international attention.

I knew about the signing to the Manticore label, but I misunderstood the original post and thought that Lake had some influence on their original signing. Obviously Lake (and Emerson) had the ability to sign any bands they wanted to their own label.

I only recently discovered PFM and Banco, since I was only 4 years old in 1973, when Manticore Records was formed. I discovered PFM and Banco by streaming music on Spotify.

[yesstiles]

Yes, the original Italian-language albums from PFM and Banco are superior for sure.

[GuitarGeek]

I came to learn of PFM through Steve Stevens (yes, that's right, Billy Idol's guitarist), who wrote a column for Guitar World magazine in the mid 80's. One issue, he devoted the entire article to talking about his favorite progressive rock bands. He talked about PFM, Flash, and Hatfield And The North. That's how I first heard of all three of those bands. I think he said that when he performed with Billy Idol on some Italian talk show, he found that a couple of the guys from PFM were playing in the house band, and they were stunned to meet someone who remembered PFM.

So for me, at least, the question is, would Steve Stevens have found out about PFM without the Manticore deal? At any rate, I think the first Italian band I actually heard was Il Balletto Di Bronzo, as I remember Ys being played on WRUW, I think, around 92 or 93. So I would have known about the existence of Italian bands, anyway.

[JJ88]

In the UK generally, European 'progressive' groups attracted quite a bit of attention and wide distribution on bigger labels (these two, but also Aphrodite's Child, Can, Neu!, Faust, Amon Duul II) and some went onto success like Tangerine Dream, Kraftwerk and Focus in particular.

It's not something which has really ever happened since...I think it's testament to the broad spirit of that era.

[GuitarGeek]

In the UK generally, European 'progressive' groups attracted quite a bit of attention and wide distribution on bigger labels (these two, but also Aphrodite's Child, Can, Neu!, Faust, Amon Duul II) and some went onto success like Tangerine Dream, Kraftwerk and Focus in particular.

The same is true Stateside. All the bands you name (along with Hawkwind and Gong) got a degree of visibility here, as well, certainly enough that 20 years later, there were people still playing the music on college radio. Some of those records were even released here (and of course, some of the others found their way into the import bins too).

Somewhere around here, I have an article my old penpal sent me, from circa 1971-1972 issue of Penthouse (!!) on "space rock". It starts of talking about The Byrds song Mr. Spaceman, but it also mentions Hawkwind, Can and I can't remember who else. I remember distinctly they misprinted the title of Ege Bamyasi, with it being spelled as "Edge Bamyazi" or something like that.

[JJ88]

^Sure. It's a pity that it hasn't happened more often since. I suppose it helped that several of these progressive bands (particularly the German groups) relied more heavily upon instrumental work...less worry about the lyrics! (One band that didn't really cross over here on any level was Harmonium, despite that Cinq Saisons... album being a real masterpiece.)

I'd forgotten about Vangelis' solo endeavours which were pretty successful for some time, particularly the collaborations with Jon Anderson and his many soundtracks.

Speaking as someone not there at the time, I can say I probably first became aware of PFM via the ELP/Manticore connection and Le Orme because of Peter Hammill (although I don't have the English language Felona And Serona he translated). But I didn't actually listen to them until I came online and discovered these groups had very faithful fans.

[JKL2000]

I was always surprised that ELP went to the trouble to find and sign Italian bands, but the OP shows that it was probably a worthwhile thing.

[presdoug]

I discovered PFM, and Italian prog in general, in 1980, when a college friend played me Photos Of Ghosts. It was still later when I discovered PFM were huge in my native Canada, as well. I always really enjoyed the English lyric versions of their albums.
I found out that in the seventies, a high school in Ottawa invited PFM to play a concert, and the band did so, flying over on a moment's notice. That is so cool!

[JKL2000]

I discovered PFM, and Italian prog in general, in 1980, when a college friend played me Photos Of Ghosts. It was still later when I discovered PFM were huge in my native Canada, as well. I always really enjoyed the English lyric versions of their albums.
I found out that in the seventies, a high school in Ottawa invited PFM to play a concert, and the band did so, flying over on a moment's notice. That is so cool!

^^ Wow, amazing they were able to do that.

I've never heard anything from PFM's English-language albums.

[JeffCarney]

I was always surprised that ELP went to the trouble to find and sign Italian bands, but the OP shows that it was probably a worthwhile thing.

I'm surprised that anyone would be surprised.

Prog was then ginormous in Italy (with ELP arguably its very biggest success there by '73), and bands influenced by Emerson and the idea of incorporating classical music within rock composition was rampant. Seems only logical to have wanted to bring some variety within that context to the Manticore catalog.

Let's keep in mind that Manticore also signed bands like Stray Dog.

[bRETT]

Let's keep in mind that Manticore also signed bands like Stray Dog.

..And Hanson, fronted by the future lead guitarist for Bob Marley & the Wailers.

[lak611]

I came to learn of PFM through Steve Stevens (yes, that's right, Billy Idol's guitarist), who wrote a column for Guitar World magazine in the mid 80's. One issue, he devoted the entire article to talking about his favorite progressive rock bands. He talked about PFM, Flash, and Hatfield And The North. That's how I first heard of all three of those bands. I think he said that when he performed with Billy Idol on some Italian talk show, he found that a couple of the guys from PFM were playing in the house band, and they were stunned to meet someone who remembered PFM.

So for me, at least, the question is, would Steve Stevens have found out about PFM without the Manticore deal? At any rate, I think the first Italian band I actually heard was Il Balletto Di Bronzo, as I remember Ys being played on WRUW, I think, around 92 or 93. So I would have known about the existence of Italian bands, anyway.

WRUW 91.1 Case Western Reserve University? What shows back in the early 90s?

Do they still have any prog shows nowadays? I haven't listened in over 20 years.

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[Scrotum Scissor]

Prog was then ginormous in Italy.

And although it's not the least bit viable in commercial terms anymore, the mass of "underground" progressive rock (of ALL sorts) coming out of Italy is still staggering in size even today.

But even back then, the influence of various 'progressive' aesthetics and approaches was noticeable also in the biggest names of Italian pop; Lucio Battisti, I Nomadi, Fabrizio de Andre, I Dik Dik, I Pooh and so on.

As you know already, Jeff.

I guess I'm getting old and grumpy but it seems I am regularly amazed at how stuff I thought was fairly common prog knowledge is unknown here. And yet we have threads on Asia ...

How DARE you, Jeff!

[Scrotum Scissor]

I only recently discovered PFM and Banco, since I was only 4 years old in 1973, when Manticore Records was formed. I discovered PFM and Banco by streaming music on Spotify.

Laura, if you're new to the concept of Italian progressive rock in general, we've had several good-to-great threads on the topic over the years. Try the following for starters:

http://www.progressiveears.org/forum...t=Italian+prog
http://www.progressiveears.org/forum...light=balletto
http://www.progressiveears.org/forum...light=balletto

[lak611]

Laura, if you're new to the concept of Italian progressive rock in general, we've had several good-to-great threads on the topic over the years. Try the following for starters:

http://www.progressiveears.org/forum...t=Italian+prog
http://www.progressiveears.org/forum...light=balletto
http://www.progressiveears.org/forum...light=balletto

Thanks! 😊 I'll check those out.

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[moodyxadi]

I believe in the old days (pre-www)the ELP-connection was a giant step in making PFM (and, by extension, RPI) accessible to the general rock public outside Italy. Together with a certain anglocentric view of prog (that I believe is faded at least with those persons that go even a little bit further the Big Names-thing) they were very important in expanding the horizons both for the public and PFm themselves.
My first contact with PFM was in the early 90s with Photos of Ghosts and the ELP-connection was decisive. It was only some years later with Storia di un Minuto that I could start to really appreciate this marvelous band. But for now it's common knowledge that the Italian albums were the better ones, even if they suffer a little in the production front. The same aplies to the Orme and Banco ones.

[GuitarGeek]

WRUW 91.1 Case Western Reserve University? What shows back in the early 90s?

Do they still have any prog shows nowadays? I haven't listened in over 20 years.

There were a few different shows that played progressive rock intermittently (likewise for WCSB), but the main show I listened to was called The Lost Barney Spoon. It was hosted by a guy named Randy Woodling.

Actually I first started listening to him when he had a show called Two Brain Stegosaurus Drive In, in the late 80's. Then Randy took a hiatus of a couple years in the early 90's, before coming back with The Lost Barney Spoon, which he did for a couple years, then he took another hiatus before coming back in the late 90's, again calling the show The Lost Barney Spoon.

It was listening to Randy that I was introduced to Magma, Amon Duul II, Ash Ra Tempel, and a bunch of other stuff, too. I think I might have heard Focus for the first time on his show, I also remember him playing some music from the Ozric Tentacles Vitamin Enhanced when it first came out.

The only thing was, his shows were always on in late night, so I used to hook up my VCR to the radio receiver and record the show. It would come out in mono, but it was still better than nothing at all, in a time when I don't know about outfits like Wayside Music, nor had access to decent import shops (there weren't, and still aren't, any on the east side of Cleveland) and one's only real chance at the time to find any of this stuff was to happen across it in the used bins.

I have no idea what's on any of the Cleveland college stations anymore. I really haven't listened much in over a decade. I don't really do radio anymore. For awhile, there was one show on either WCSB or WRUW, in the afternoon, I think it was on Wednesdays, where the guy would play like an hour of progressive related music (he seemed to be fond of Fripp related stuff), then he'd spend an hour lecturing about the military and political stuff (most of which sounded like gibberish to me). But like I said, that was like a decade ago.

I think Dare Waves is still on WRUW. That used to be on Friday or Saturday nights after midnight, but I know a few years ago, Neal switched to doing the show Thursday evenings because he said it took too much out of him to do the show in the post-midnight time slot. But he mostly features stuff like The Residents, and other sort of extreme sort of avant garde type stuff, I guess some of it being what you might call "noise music".

And I believe there's also a show on Wednesday nights, on WCSB, that has a similar focus on sort of "drone" and "noise" musics, hosted by one of my Facebook friends.

[A. Scherze]

http://www.pfmpfm.it/eng/main.htm

At that time Franco Mamone and Francesco Sanavio were the two most important promoters in Italy and they were both aware that times were changing because dance hall's era was going to its end. They started to promote the most important foreign bands' concerts. Franco Mamone become PFM's manager and for this reason PFM started to perform live show as special guests. They started with Procol Harum, then with YES, but the good occasion came when they performed as special guests before the concert of the most important band of that time: Deep Purple. The idea was a little bit daring, but courage have always supported PFM's choices!

The echo of that beautiful evening went far away. Times were really changing and live festivals were taking place everywhere. Not long after, PFM had another good occasion to get known and to grow up (from the artistic point of view). During summer 1971 in Viareggio took place the first "Vanguard and New Trends Festival", the most important Italian live festival of the year, where all the new Italian bands were invited to perform. The Festival rules asked every participant to perform an unpublished song. Franco Mussida, who was used to compose since the early beginning of his musical adventure, composed "La Carrozza di Hans" (Hans' coach). He composed it mentally while he was driving from Turin to Milan. The song was arranged and prepared for the Festival. At Viareggio Festival everybody were surprised by PFM's memorable performance which started by an electrical and involving "overture", then Mussida took his classic guitar and made people fly in Hans' story (Hans is a merchant who sells dreams) by his sweet arpeggios…The audience was astonished. PFM achieved success and won the Festival in equal worth with Mia Martini and Osanna.

After the first single (Impressioni di Settembre and La Carrozza di Hans) PFM recorded its first LP "Storia di un Minuto" (The story of one minute). They recorded live in studio, because they wanted to transfer on their LP the peculiar energy and immediacy of their music.

This LP had such a good success and PFM's members decided to go back to the studios and record the second LP. They were oriented towards Europe. The second LP "Per un amico" (For a Friend) sounded differently, maybe more international than the first one. What happened later confirmed that it was really "more international". On December 20th 1972, Greg Lake saw their showcase in Rome, at PalaEur. He invited them to visit the Manticore (Emerson, Lake & Palmer Record Company) in London where they also met Pete Sinfield, King Crimson's poet.

P. Sinfield, who was also Roxy Music producer, went to their showcase in London and decided to produce them and write the lyrics. He liked the warm, Mediterranean touch of PFM's progressive music and for this reason he decided to continue with them the same "research" he started with the first Crimson band. On January 1973 the band moved to London where they started to record their first international LP at Command Studio. Irony of the fate, R. Fripp's King Crimson were recording "Lark's Tongue in Aspic, while PFM was recording "Photos of Ghosts" - "Per un Amico" English version -. During that period in London, PFM had to modify slightly their name, because Englishmen could not pronounce it properly.

In fact, during the interviews they remarked that everybody was mangling Premiata Forneria Marconi in the most grotesques ways, that sounded like: Premiaticoni Fornaroncini Marconcinetti. Pete Sinfield suggested to use simply PFM, which was an easier and more international name. On March 24th 1973 PFM performed a showcase in London's ABC Fhulan Theatre, but, unfortunately, the critics were not very warm. They used to say: "these musicians are not too bad, but they are Italians!". Anyway critics had to change their mind very soon. PFM's first English single "Celebration" ("E' Festa" English version) was very successful and PFM took part to Reading Festival. In that occasion, at the end of their show there was a standing ovation and everybody asked for one more song: Celebration.

The most unexpected surprise came from USA, because PFM's LP entered in BillBoard's hit parade. This event was really unbelievable, because it was very difficult to be considered in that Hit parade, especially for a non-english band. Things started to go on very well, because the band received continuously new confirmations of their growing success. PFM reached the second place in Melody Maker's Brightest Hopes hit parade and the third place in New Musical Express's Brightest Hopes top ten.

The band started touring all around Europe with Pete Sinfield and M. Collins. PFM 's success grew everywhere and in Italy everybody were astonished about this exceptional career.

[grego]

I first heard Chocolate Kings, in 1976 I think. In 1980 I bought me a Manticore LP of Chocolate Kings album. Per Un Amico and La Storia I have heard about same period of time, in 76-77. Oddly enough, I came to know Photos of Ghosts, The World Became The World only in 00s..