The "fix" I recall being used for QPR was syncing it to one of the better 1976 boots... Roosevelt Stadium, perhaps.Originally Posted by happytheman
The "fix" I recall being used for QPR was syncing it to one of the better 1976 boots... Roosevelt Stadium, perhaps.
I'm holding out for the Wilson-mixed 5.1 super-duper walletbuster special anniversary extra adjectives edition.
Lots of rumors over the years about the tapes for the QPR show and why it ended up the way it did.
What's present on the available version sounds like it was mixed on the fly for the BBC broadcast (since it's in mono and gets better in the last half of the show), and it's even questionable whether multitrack audiotapes of the show exist at all.
In such a show intended for video broadcast in the '70s, there might not have been multitrack recording done. A lot of the video available from our favorite '70s bands comes from shows like Don Kirschner's Rock Concert or Rockpalast that were special shows broadcast from a studio where the audio could be professionally handled in a controlled environment. QPR, by contrast, was simply the BBC attempting to film a regular Yes concert in an outdoor setting and comparatively little time to set up and prepare.
It was claimed at one point that QPR tapes were among the those found about 20 years ago in a set of vintage road cases used by Yes in the mid-'70s. However, the only material mentioned by the band in connection with this was live tapes used for Yessongs.
I'm perfectly willing to live with what we have. It's not perfect, but anyone familiar with the '75-76 tours will be able to fill in the audio blanks, so to speak. I would, however, add my voice to those hoping for a proper Moraz-era release as the follow-up to Progeny.
And given "the unique way the BBC is funded" (as Jeremy Clarkson would put it) it seems unlikely they would have sprung for a multi-track remote truck to be sent out to record something like a rock concert. Classical music or music hall, maybe, but the higher ups probably viewed Yes as "pop music", and figured a two track live mix "will do".
^Broadcasts of a concert outside BBC premises was actually not something the BBC did very often for this show- now and again, rather than regularly. The OGWT generally only showed a track or something from a show not on BBC premises, or licensed in films like Yessongs (most of which they showed not long after it was filmed), Manticore Special etc.
I'm not sure who exactly put this QPR footage together, whether the BBC just licensed it for broadcast or made it themselves or whatever.
Another high profile OGWT live broadcast from that time was Queen from the Hammersmith Odeon which went out live in Christmas 1975, when 'Bohemian Rhapsody' was at Number 1. It went rather better than the QPR Yes show on a technical level...but unfortunately I gather the last couple of songs (after the encore) were not recorded.
Last edited by JJ88; 12-28-2016 at 07:54 AM.
I remember getting a bootleg VHS of this in the 90s and being blown away just by its existence, having only seen those few clips on Yesyears. There's something i really love about that opening shot of the crowd and the stage with those blocks of flats in the backgroundAnyone know what the ambient music is being played before the Firebird starts??
according to former WNEW-FM DJ Richard Neer in his book, 'FM',
the there was no mixing of the show being done by the radio station
engineers; the feed going out ove rthe air was what the guy doing
Yes' sound sent out. (This was because the manager of WNEW at the time
was too cheap to pay Neer and a sound engineer companion of his the
few hundred bucks extra they would have charged to do an on-the-fly
broadcast mix). Hence the rather interesting variations in sound
quality as the show progressed.
see belowYes, it was. It was a known fact that when they did Close To The Edge on the Close To The Edge tour (and maybe on the Topographic Oceans tour, too), the pipe organ was Memorex.
An 'actual' pipe organ? How so?On the Going For The One tour, Wakeman's keyboard rig included an actual pipe organ, but I think he said once it was a major pain to mic up in the context of a live electric performance.
For Close to the Edge, the big cadenza at the end of I Get Up/Down was played on Moog on tour. To my ears, Moraz got a better,more dramatic Moog sound for that part (when he could keep it in tune, which was an issue at QPR), than Wakeman ever did.
There's a bit of actual pipe organ scurrying around just before the cadenza -- *that* was punched in on tape at live shows (on the CttE tour, at least) .
The "Lost Tapes' weren't the Progeny tapes; they seem to be a mismash of pre-progeny gigs (including, perhaps, the Bruford performances of LDR/Fish, where were from a show at the Academy of Music in NYC) , Progeny-era stuff, and QPR (May 1975)
https://www.facebook.com/notes/notes...2498150035602/
One thing we know (from Patrick Moraz interviews in Jon Kirkman's Yes book) is that QPR was the first gig that Jean Ristori worked on as Yes's monitor mixer.
If what we hear is what Yes was hearing in their monitors....
ISTR there's some discussion of what went wrong at that gig, in that book, but there's no index and I don't feel like trying to verify ;>
THis guy has done good synchs of QPR to better-quality audio -- I suspect 'Tommygun' just takes these guys' work and sells them .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Adnq_j5NQXk
What do you mean "How so?" I mean a pipe organ, that phrase speaks for itself, ie an instrument whereby the sound is generated by air being forced through pipes, as opposed to a tone wheel organ (ie Hammond) or an electronic organ (ie a Lowrey, Farfisa, Yamaha, Vox, etc). I believe it was made by a company called Mander. I remember Wakeman mentioning it in at least two interviews, and it's also listed among his instrument list in the Going For The One tour program (tour programs are the one bit of memorabilia I indulged in collecting, including most of the Yes programs from 1976-2004). I suppose it was a quasi-portable version of one, obviously not the kind you'd find in a permanent installation in a church, but still as far as I understand it, it was literally a pipe organ, like one of these:
Early Moog synthesizers were notorious for their unstable oscillators. Anyone who used one had to keep fussing with the oscillators to get it them to stay in tune. That was the one thing ARP definitely had over on Moog: their oscillators stayed in tune better.For Close to the Edge, the big cadenza at the end of I Get Up/Down was played on Moog on tour. To my ears, Moraz got a better,more dramatic Moog sound for that part (when he could keep it in tune, which was an issue at QPR), than Wakeman ever did.
If you watch the QPR video carefully, there's a point during I Get Up I Get Down, I'm not sure if it's where the dry ice swoops in and fills the stage, or if it's once the dry ice clears, but you can see Moraz put on a pair of headphones and sets up a patch on one of his Mini-moogs, the very one he uses to play the bit the cadenza you're talking about. It's hard to know, though, if the out of tune oscillator you hear at the start of the cadenza is because of the unstable oscillators, or if he just did a bad job of tuning them a minute or two earlier, but you do hear one of them being out of tune at first, and Moraz attempts to compensate by tweaking it's frequency, but it still seems to be just a tad out still even after the tweak.
I remember one of the guys in Devo, I think it was Mark Mothersbaugh, but I'm not sure, say that when they played Mongoloid (I think it was Mongoloid) live he'd tune the Minimoog to whichever weird interval (a 7th, I think) before the song started. And the 2 minutes or so it took to get to the part of the song where synth solo occurred was all it took some nights for the oscillators to drift.
Yes, that "bit of actual pipe organ" is what I was talking about, before the synthesizer kicks in, the sort of dramatic organ thing. If I'm not mistaken, at QPR at least, Moraz is heard playing on the Hammond, which is why it sounds considerably less dramatic than it did on the studio version and on Yessongs.There's a bit of actual pipe organ scurrying around just before the cadenza -- *that* was punched in on tape at live shows (on the CttE tour, at least)
Well, monitor feeds to tend to be personal things with musicians. They don't always want (or need) to hear the same things that you or I want to hear out in the audience. The purpose is so they can hear enough of the music that they need to hear to play in time and play in tune.One thing we know (from Patrick Moraz interviews in Jon Kirkman's Yes book) is that QPR was the first gig that Jean Ristori worked on as Yes's monitor mixer.
If what we hear is what Yes was hearing in their monitors....
I remember reading an interview with one of the Grateful Dead's monitor guys, who said that when they first started using a system that allowed each member of the band to do his own monitor mix (instead of having to tell the monitor guy what he wanted onstage), they were stunned to find out that each band member basically had just himself in his monitors (which were earbuds at this point, we're talking sometime in the mid 90's here). I remember seeing in a couple places these being described as "selfish" monitor mixes. But it makes sense, because if you want to be able to make sure your guitar and tuning are right, you'd probably want that loudest in the mix, and then maybe have a bit of the rhythm section so you're playing in time with them, and that's all most people would really need.
What I don't understand is, why in the first three or four songs on QPR, the instruments drop in and out the way they do. There's sections where Steve Howe is completely audible, for instance you can hear him at the beginning of To Be Over, but then he disappears during the guitar solo section in the middle of the song. The harmonics at the beginning of Gates Of Delirium also appear to be nearly absent in the mix, but then later in the piece, he's louder. There just doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason as to why his guitar drops in and out in some places. And I don't think it's just a matter of him switching between instruments, say switching from conventional guitar to pedal steel.
So if that's one musician's monitor mix, I can't imagine why the levels would be going up and down so much. Unless whichever band member it was, was really fussy about his monitors and couldn't get the mix just the way he wanted it. That was back in the days before earphone monitors, which is what a band like Yes would be using now, so having to rely on what was coming out of a speaker 10 feet away from must have been a real difficult situation (I imagine it still is for musicians who can't afford the earphone systems).
I didn't know Jon Kiirkman wrote a book about Yes (or any books). In this case we should likely get a Moraz Q&A session on the CTTE, as Kirkman is the MC for the cruise.One thing we know (from Patrick Moraz interviews in Jon Kirkman's Yes book) is that QPR was the first gig that Jean Ristori worked on as Yes's monitor mixer.
If what we hear is what Yes was hearing in their monitors....
ISTR there's some discussion of what went wrong at that gig, in that book, but there's no index and I don't feel like trying to verify ;>
It's discussed either in the Kirkman book or somewhere else that I'm not remembering . The weather was bad at QPR (rain and wind) and IIRC there were issues with the connections to the board.
Yeah, I'm not crazy about the sound on that at all- it has different problems to the first half of QPR (a very compressed sound). A strong performance but I wouldn't say that show as it stands is really release-quality, which is why I specified that it should only come out if multi-tracks exist, and that's unlikely. It's also, obviously, a different tour (the 'solo albums' 1976 one) to the QPR one, so I'm surprised that show was used as a synch-up.
One thing...'I'm Down' received a release on the YesYears box...did that sound the same as the FM broadcast?? This could be the key to whether multi-tracks exist.
It appears that the best sound quality would be the rest of that Detroit/Cobo Hall concert...dipped into for Yesshows and The Word Is Live. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think anything from their 1975 tour (beyond 'Sweet Dreams' from this QPR show!) has ever been released on any kind of Yes album...maybe no multi-tracks exist.
Last edited by JJ88; 12-30-2016 at 11:11 AM.
That "cadenza" (if it's the part I'm thinking of) was a synth (probably Moog) on the original album.. I think I remember Jon described it as the "Old church" (represented by the pipe organ) giving way to the "new church" (represented by the synth).
I was just listening to a 1977 version of Close to the Edge and I do hear that the pipe organ is played live (not a tape). I dont think they even used a tape for that little scurrying bit before the synth comes in (left it out). And his synth sound is pretty good on that one.
They used tapes for the "Cha Cha Cha" vocal part of Sound Chaser as well. On the well recorded Boston version (which I got as a boot back in 77 or so) , it sounds as though someone forgot to stop the tape after the Firebird, and the "Cha Cha Cha" comes in right at the beginning of Soundchaser.... It sounds pretty good!
I think that's intentional, I've heard that several times. I have a KBFH broadcast from 12/11/74, and that happens during Firebird Suite there as well. The "cha cha's" and a little piece of the recorded drum part come in while the last notes of Firebird is still playing. I think the two were dubbed together on the into tape, and the Soundchaser part gave the band the cue of when to come in.
I agree, it does sound pretty good!
Bill
That's exactly the show I'm talking about... but I've listened to many other versions and never heard it like that anywhere else (and it cuts off in the middle of the second "cha-" like someone quickly stopping the tape) .In the shows before and after that one (12/11/74 Boston), it starts with the drums (no Cha Cha CHa) . So I still think it's a (good sounding) mistake...
Last edited by thos; 12-30-2016 at 04:22 PM.
Well, you could be right. Turns out this broadcast was released as The Affirmery, which was the old boot I had, which I thought was a different source. But if it's the same source, then this may be the only time I've ever heard it happen this way. I looked on Youtube and found the 12/10/74 show, and it doesn't happen then. So that does point to an accident. If so, it's the weirdest accident like this I've ever heard, because it works so well.That's exactly the show I'm talking about... but I've listened to many other versions and never heard it like that anywhere else (and it cuts off in the middle of the second "cha-" like someone quickly stopping the tape) .In the shows before and after that one (12/11/74 Boston), it starts with the drums (no Cha Cha CHa) . So I still think it's a (good sounding) mistake...
Bill
Vangelis "Creation du Monde"I remember getting a bootleg VHS of this in the 90s and being blown away just by its existence, having only seen those few clips on Yesyears. There's something i really love about that opening shot of the crowd and the stage with those blocks of flats in the background
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2ylB474O2Q
I thought it was Rick who said that, but my understanding was he was talking about the synth bit that comes after that, where he reiterates the melody Howe plays at the beginning of the piece (before the vocals start), with the oscillators tuned in 7ths, I believe. My understanding was the pipe organ represented the church. The 7ths synth bit represented the destruction of the church, and the Hammond organ bit represented "the new church". Or something like that. Or maybe he was talking about both synth bits together.
I was just listening to a 1977 version of Close to the Edge and I do hear that the pipe organ is played live (not a tape). I dont think they even used a tape for that little scurrying bit before the synth comes in (left it out). And his synth sound is pretty good on that one.
Yeah, that's pretty obvious if you watch the QPR video, you see Steve Howe doing the "Hum!" (or whatever it is) bit by himself, but it sounds like a chorus of people doing it. Very obviously Memorex.They used tapes for the "Cha Cha Cha" vocal part of Sound Chaser as well. On the well recorded Boston version (which I got as a boot back in 77 or so) , it sounds as though someone forgot to stop the tape after the Firebird, and the "Cha Cha Cha" comes in right at the beginning of Soundchaser.... It sounds pretty good!
The funny thing is, the first time I heard the Boston Garden recording (which was presented to me initially as having been recorded in Sydney, Australia...it was only years later I found it was actually a King Biscuit show), I didn't pick up on the likelihood that was a tape, but I always liked the way it sounded with that bit at the beginning of Sound Chaser, instead of at the end.
And for what it's worth, this became a habit with Yes, as they used tapes while performing Leave It in concert, though the bootlegs I've heard, it's clearly obvious they're actually singing live on top of the tape, because on most of them, somebody is singing way off key. I'm sure I've heard at least two or three tapes like that. And then apparently, on most of the tours where they did Rhythm Of Love, that vocal harmony thing on the intro, also was Memorex. The only time I actually remember them doing that song on a show that I saw was in 1997, where they skipped the intro, the song started with Alan White playing drums for a couple bars, then the rest of the band dropping in behind him.
You're probably right that it was Rick and about those details... thanks.
Absolutely. Watching the end sends shivers down my spine. It's like Anderson is totally on top of the world. For this 20 mins, he and Yes are the most important band on the planet.
Let's also not forget that sublime Moraz solo - fucking unreal.
Making Wikipedia marginally more interesting at:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCul...PXchSo_vDxtcLg
I remember someone made a videotape of this performance. I put it on de DVD-R and made an inlay for it.
Yes.jpg
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks