Why weren't Genesis big in the 70's ?

[Digital_Man]

I suppose it depends on how you define "big." I've thought about this a lot actually(without losing any sleep over it)and I'd say Genesis were about as big in the seventies as Rush were(more or less)or as big as REM was in the 80's.

They weren't as big as Pink Floyd, Yes or ELP in the period of 71-76 or so but they were still probably household names in college and prog circles. In ENgland, Italy and Europe in general they were just as big if not bigger than those bands(although starting out initally maybe not quite as much since they did open up for VDGG in 71 in Italy (and probably elsewhere)and not the other way around. But even in the US I'd say Genesis were still fairly well known even before Steve Hackett left and I doubt there were many hardcore prog fans who didn't at least know who they were by 1974/75.

The unfortunate truth is that Genesis didn't get real big until after Steve left(at least in the US). Their first gold album was "and then there were three" which many people see as the beginning of their pop period(I see it(along with Duke)as being more of a transitional album though). Trick of the Tail was their first top forty(with Lamb just missing it at number 41 but apparently it was on the charts a while). Also, "wind and wuthering" was the first time the band played at the Spectrum in Philly but I suppose that doesn't count since the OP was wondering about their 70-75 period.

Also, it's worth mentioning that afaik Genesis didn't get on a major label until 73 with Atlantic and the SEBTP album. That is probably what landed them in the US charts for the first time at a not too shabby number 70(same spot as PF's Meddle about two years earlier).

[paythesnuka]

I think it all comes down to exposure and the push given by the record company. Weren't both Yes and ELP on Atlantic Records in the U.S. in the '70s, whereas Genesis was on the Charisma Label during the Gabriel era. The former two bands had a big company that was able to push for radio and advertising exposure, while I can't see Charisma being able to match the efforts given to those two bands.

[mogrooves]

It certainly didn't help that their acoustic, folky side was perceived as overly effeminate in cock-rocking America.

Emerson fucked his organ, Yes had an AM hit, PF had DSoM and lasers, JT had Aqualung and a manic frontman who wore a cod-piece, "Ziggy" had Mick Ronson, and the Moody Blues had accessible FM-friendly songs one could sing along with. Genesis' penchant for musical--and literary--artifice (emphasis on "art") and Victoriania reeked of an esoteric, English twee-ness utterly too baffling and limp-wristed for mass appeal in the States. They would've needed a "Sledgehammer" to break through....

[JJ88]

I see a parallel with Roxy Music, who were a big deal in the UK but meant very little in the US...until the sound had been smoothed out with albums like 'Avalon' and the image had also been toned down.

[Digital_Man]

Genesis must have been fairly big in the UK. All their albums from "Foxtrot" onward charted very well. SEBTP made it to #3. Genesis may have been a "cult" band in America in the 70s but they did quite well elsewhere as others have noted.

Generally speaking I would agree with the last part(the first part of course is well documented) especially when considering the Gabriel era. I'd say the band were only slightly more popular than Gentle Giant(from around 74-76); quite a bit more so after that but about the same in popularity with them from around 71-74 (in the US anyway). I think by the time the Lamb was released they were starting to break out of their cult status and head towards the mainstream(maybe not so much in sound though but more in the way of getting more recognition and radio play).

[Reid]

They were playing hockey arenas by the late 70s. Not exactly a cult band.

[Rufus]

They were playing hockey arenas by the late 70s. Not exactly a cult band.

The thread is specific to the Gabriel era !

[JeffCarney]

The thread is specific to the Gabriel era !

And also appears to discount Italy.

[mpoll]

I remember seeing Genesis in Milwaukee ("And Then There Were Three Tour") in 1978. "Follow You, Follow Me" had just broken, even on AM radio (!). Standing among the large crowd prior to the start of the set, I was amazed at how different the crowd was from any other prog concert I'd seen.........so many young women. That, of course, pleased me until I figured out that they were ONLY there to hear "Follow You, Follow Me". The last straw was when several of these young women made disparaging remarks about "The Fountain of Salmacis" (best surprise of the set, IMO). I left with the realization that Genesis, and the public's perception of Genesis, had changed considerably. Turns out, I was correct.

[Rufus]

And also appears to discount Italy.

ELP were selling out stadia in that country, Genesis wernt & thats the point of the thread ! Whilst they were popular they still didnt achieve the stratospheric heights of Floyd , Yes or ELP in Europe! Lamb shows were cancelled in Italy cos of poor sales ! Do u homework !!

[Reid]

The thread is specific to the Gabriel era !

That's before my time. I don't think they were on my radar until 1977-78.

They didn't have a hit on the K-Tel compilation like Focus did.

[JeffCarney]

ELP were selling out stadia in that country, Genesis wernt & thats the point of the thread ! Whilst they were popular they still didnt achieve the stratospheric heights of Floyd , Yes or ELP in Europe! Lamb shows were cancelled in Italy cos of poor sales ! Do u homework !!

If you consider "doing your homework" to be referencing a comment Phil Collins made in the Genesis "History" video about a few of last 'Lamb' shows in France, then fine, but at least get the country right.

If you are actually attempting to argue that Gabriel-era Genesis weren't "big" in Italy, then I feel it reasonable to advise you that any comments about "homework" are probably best directed inward.

[txprog]

Great thread and discussion.

A few thoughts and comments to what other have said. I discovered Genesis in the fall of 73. Read something in a newspaper or magazine about a band from England playing classicaly influeneced prog rock or some such thing. I then heard a track on WMMR in Philly, Firth of Fith I think, bought SEBTP and that was it.

It seems to me their popularity at the time, at least in Philly, was about right for what they were doing. No way that show would have translated well in arenas. The shows in early March of 74 at the Tower - a Saturday night followed by a Sunday matinee - were both sold out I think. The Lamb hit the Civic Center in early December 74 - maybe 5-6K there - and while most hadn't heard the album - I had it for just a couple of days and listened to as much as I could - and were indeed a bit confused (The Waiting Room), I do remember that as the show progressed people seemed to understand that this was pretty damn good, and when The Light Downs on Broadway started, a now familiar theme generated a ripple of applause to move about the hall.

76 saw two shold out shows in one night back at the Tower, and 77 they played to about 16K at the Spectrum.

So, at least where I was during this period, the band - still firmly in its prog mode - got exposure and their popularity steadily increased.

[Chuck AzEee!]

Ahhh typical Rufus... Is it really important that Genesis wasnt as big as the bands you mentioned? They didn't rock like some of their peers, but yet they were perhaps the most important band from that era when it came to influence on the Neo-progressive scene. I am not saying they were the ONLY band that influenced the movement, but they were a big influence. Now Rufus, I am a big Genesis fan and if we are talking about just Genesis now, The Lamb tour was a case of biting off more than they could chew as far as the fan base went. They booked a lot of places in a short time which made selling their tickets to a show where the album might had been released weeks prior a tough sell.

The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway must had been a shock to many especially in the United States having to sit through nearly an hour and a half of material that both the band and audience were just becoming familiar with. Bootlegs from the European tour were far superior in the band's musical confidence and sound.

According to the Genesis management, they had ONLY booked one Italian gig to the chagrin of their fans for The Lamb tour. And we're did you ever get the notion that that gig wasn't sold out? They had to turn many fans away for that solo gig.

The shift from Gabriel's extroverted lead singing role to the Phil Collins/Hackett era might seem big to some, but it did allow the band to stretch out their musical legs and reach out to the audience that wanted to hear Genesis RAWK out!

Charles

[Meme Prog Mutation]

Some context. Melody Maker 1973 Pop Poll Results:

International:

Group with the Brightest Hope - Genesis = 4th Place
Best Live Act - Genesis = 7th Place
Best Arranger - Genesis = 9th Place

Britian:

Best Male Singer - Peter Gabrial of Genesis = 7th Place
Best Group - Genesis = 9th Place
Best Album - Foxtrot by Genesis = 5th Place
Group with the Brightest Hope - Genesis = 6th Place
Best Live Act - Genesis = 4th Place

[Gladiator1634]

With re: to The Lamb , the sound was a very different direction ! Gone was the flute & the pastoral sound . Even Gabriel had dropped his falsetto approach with his vocals . So I don't think it was just the Lamb Tour that divided the fans. Even by the end of the tour & the fans had had time to digest it, ticket sales weren't great , resulting in half empty venues & cancellations. Ironically enough , the countries where they had been most popular in Europe where the ones where the tour struggled !

To me each album of the six from the Gabriel era have a bit of a different sound direction. Not sure if I would classify the Lamb as a very different direction. I would agree more with that statement when comparing the first album to the second. Gabriel was also still playing the flute on the Lamb and some of the changes in the bands sound was due to the technology advancements with the instruments at that time mainly the keyboards.

Not sure what you mean by the divided fans. The biggest thing that was upsetting some of the fans was the lack of older songs being performed on the tour not their dislike for the Lamb. It didn't change their fondness for the band and their music. Most probably figured they would catch the next tour to hear those old songs again which of course we all know what happened with that.

Judging by the response that tribute band gets from sold out audiences around the world performing that very Lamb show only proves that the dedicated fans like myself who saw it back then are still fascinated by it. Anybody I've ever spoken with that saw that original tour has nothing but praise for it. So your statement of half filled venues and cancellations is very misleading.

When Gabriel left and Collins took over was when the division started.

[Rufus]

Wish i could remember the article where i read that The Lamb divided fans, but i defo read it ...ok..don't believe everything you read etc!
What i have read , & i think it mite be Wiki was the 'Lamb lies down on Broadway ' was released as a single & got loads of airplay across the States but still didn't raise their profile in the way Roundabout & Lucky Man/From the Beginning did for those bands !

Those poll results are interesting but you can bet your bottom $ that Yes, ELP & PF where higher !

Interestingly , no mention of Phil Collins in those polls..wunda why? Sorry couldn't resist !

[yogibear]

why weren't Genesis big in the 70's? because they didn't start writing good music until the 80's.

[Dave (in MA)]

why weren't Genesis big in the 70's? because they didn't start writing good music until the 80's.

[PROGMONSTER]

Cos they weren't as good as several bands in those early 70s imo. I can never understand the high high rating for them these days. Same with Crimson. Those 2 bands seem the be in the top 3 at prog forums today. I'd say they would be lucky to make the top 10. I've always thought it was a joke or a sympathy vote that Genesis and Crimson are considered the big 2 prog bands lol. I feel a bit bored and sometimes embarrased playing Crimson or Genesis to friends.

[A. Scherze]

Here are the chart positions (US/UK) for ELP, Yes, and Genesis.

(Genesis did not enter the US Top 20 until 1978 and the Top 10 in 1981 with ABACAB.)




ELP YES GENESIS
1970 ELP 18/4 TAAW -/45 Trespass -/98
1971 Tarkus 9/1 TYA 40/4 NC -/39
1971 PAAE 10/3 Fragile 4/7
1972 Trilogy 5/2 CTTE 3/4 Foxtrot -/12
1973 Yessongs 12/7
1973 BSS 11/2 TFTO 6/1 SEBTP 70/3
1974 WBMF 4/5 Relayer 5/4 LLDOB 41/10
1976 ATOTT 31/3
1977 Works 12/9 GFTO 8/1 WAW 26/7

[Magnashine]

Because the were signing songs about food. Super's ready, the chamber of 32 doors...now called the kitchen, what other room has so many doors hey hey!

I don't know their popularity in the US back then but they had a great success here in Quebec. Lots of airplay, I heard the lamb so many times.

[JeffCarney]

Here are the chart positions (US/UK) for ELP, Yes, and Genesis.

(Genesis did not enter the US Top 20 until 1978 and the Top 10 in 1981 with ABACAB.)




ELP YES GENESIS
1970 ELP 18/4 TAAW -/45 Trespass -/98
1971 Tarkus 9/1 TYA 40/4 NC -/39
1971 PAAE 10/3 Fragile 4/7
1972 Trilogy 5/2 CTTE 3/4 Foxtrot -/12
1973 Yessongs 12/7
1973 BSS 11/2 TFTO 6/1 SEBTP 70/3
1974 WBMF 4/5 Relayer 5/4 LLDOB 41/10
1976 ATOTT 31/3
1977 Works 12/9 GFTO 8/1 WAW 26/7

If only US sales could account for the entire world, then artists wouldn't need to market their brand, release albums and tour anywhere else.

[Digital_Man]

As prog fans, we all know by now that popularity doesn't really mean that much in the end. Quality is ultimately what we are after. I'd say in prog circles Genesis has certainly caught up if not surpassed Yes, ELP, Floyd etc. ELP's popularity has dropped really low in prog circles over the past few years possibly because they haven't put out a classic or really great album since BSS. Genesis have far surpassed Yes in popularity(and are second only to Pink Floyd) but only because of their later pop success. Genesis prog catalog (from Trespass to W&W roughly)is an example of one of the best retroactive back catalogs of any band. Not only have SEBTP though W&W gone gold(admittedly not until 1990 but still...) but I think their pop success enabled them to be more visible to a younger generation of prog fans. Their seventies period while not as huge as Yes, PF, & ELP at the time has stood the test of time and held it's own ground in a retrospective way the others have not(imo).

[GuitarGeek]

Yes, certainly a confusing show to be presented with, when the album was not even out yet. A similar problem with Tales and A Passion Play too, I think.

But at least with Tales you also got the previous studio album in it's entirety, plus the encore (typically Roundabout and Starship Trooper, I believe, on that tour). And A Passion Play is only a single LP, which left a lot more room for the band to play earlier material, though it was a bit gutsy to not only open with the new album, but to also play the entire album before so much as even saying "Good evening!" to the audience.