AAJ Review: Yes, Tales from Topographic Oceans (Definitive Edition)

[jkelman]

My review of Yes' Tales from Topographic Oceans (Definitive Edition), featuring new stereo and surround sound mixes by Steven Wilson, today at All About Jazz.

It was the album that, based on challenges during the five months it took to record, should really never have come to pass. It was the album that broke a three studio album/one live recording winning streak of increasing critical acclaim. It was the album, when at least for some critics, suggested the group's seemingly endless wellspring of creative indulgences were beginning to cross over into excess. It was the album that began to divide the band's fanbase, for the same reason. It was also, despite mixed critical and popular opinion, a complete commercial success--not just as the first album to go gold in the U.K. based on pre-sales alone, but progressive rock group Yes' first album to top the U.K. Album Chart, while garnering a very respectable #6 in the USA.

The album is, of course, Tales from Topographic Oceans , and while it would be Yes' most controversial album during its "classic era" from 1971-1977, it's also an album that has largely suffered from poor transfers in the digital world, the result of less than ideal master sources and subsequent remastering of same, ultimately failing to capture its expansive compositional densities and cinematic instrumental/vocal scope.

Originally released as four side-long tracks on a two-LP set, neither the 1994 Atlantic CD release nor, even worse, the expanded 2003 two-CD Rhino remaster delivered, let alone improved upon, the sound of the original recording. The Rhino edition was, in particular, an absolute travesty that--while making room for some intriguing bonus material (including a
two+-minute intro to the opening "The Revealing Science Of God (Dance Of The Dawn)")--so butchered the sound as to largely remove the dynamics from an album that ranges from gentle, acoustic-driven progressive folk and surprisingly avant-edged concerns to harder rocking passages and full-on symphonic grandeur. It is also--perhaps in its attempts to bring out the sound of Alan White's drums more crisply and clearly--a harshly irritating listen.

All of which has done a complete disservice to one of the most fiercely determined albums from the days when progressive rock often sold in the hundreds of thousands--in some cases, even, in the millions.

Continue reading here...

[r2daft2]

Hey John...You don't 'arf write some great reviews!
My copy of the Blu-ray collection arrived today... time to listen.

[jkelman]

Hey John...You don't 'arf write some great reviews!
My copy of the Blu-ray collection arrived today... time to listen.

Not sure I get what you mean "You don't 'arf write some great reviews." Please explain...likely a cultural reference I don't get

But I'm assuming you were complimenting it...and if so, thanks!!! And if not, that's ok too!

Enjoy the Blu Ray. In high res stereo (I don't have surround) it really kicks ass.

[Mascodagama]

Not sure I get what you mean "You don't 'arf write some great reviews." Please explain...likely a cultural reference I don't get

But I'm assuming you were complimenting it...and if so, thanks!!! And if not, that's ok too!

Enjoy the Blu Ray. In high res stereo (I don't have surround) it really kicks ass.

In the UK "not 'arf" means "yes, a lot" i.e. it was high praise.

Your review also makes me want to get this, an album I thought I was done with a long time ago, so there's that.

[Dok]

Another great review John! But could you be a little more specific? orangesmilewinkgrin.gif My copy is on its way and should be here next week. I had forgotten about the association to the 'Autobiography of a Yogi'. A friend gave me a copy several years ago and it's long overdue a reading. Have you read it? A little off topic but for those that may not know there is a documentary on Paramahansa Yogananda called 'Awake: The Life of Yoganada' and it's available to stream on Netflix. A surprising amount of filmed footage of the man from the 1920's on exists. PY obviously made a big impression on Anderson.

[jkelman]

In the UK "not 'arf" means "yes, a lot" i.e. it was high praise.

Your review also makes me want to get this, an album I thought I was done with a long time ago, so there's that.

Thanks,for the explanation. While my first wife was British and my current wife of a quarter century Irish,i must admit to never having heard the term before. Filed away for future reference...and with thanks to both you and r2daft2 for the compliment.

I wasn't much different. While I've played TFTO over the years, I've always been mixed; this edition sets any past ambiguities and ambivalences to rest. I never thought it was bad, but never appreciated it for what I now do.

[jkelman]

Another great review John! But could you be a little more specific? orangesmilewinkgrin.gif My copy is on its way and should be here next week. I had forgotten about the association to the 'Autobiography of a Yogi'. A friend gave me a copy several years ago and it's long overdue a reading. Have you read it? A little off topic but for those that may not know there is a documentary on Paramahansa Yogananda called 'Awake: The Life of Yoganada' and it's available to stream on Netflix. A surprising amount of filmed footage of the man from the 1920's on exists. PY obviously made a big impression on Anderson.

No, I've not actually read the book...and suppose I should. As for Netflix...it may be on the US version but that doesn't mean, as I've been disappointed before, that it's in the Canadian one. I'll have to check it out.

Thanks for the kind words. Always happy to hear folks who've enjoyed my stuff. Am ok with hearing from folks who don't, too, to be clear....as long as they aren't rude about it

[lak611]

"Also, with the US and UK vinyl versions coming from two different masters—but neither of them the original master tape, from which this edition's original stereo mixes are sourced—it becomes patently clear that those suggesting the vinyl release they bought, back in the day, is somehow better need answer a most salient question: which vinyl version? After all, it was common practice, at the time, to have masters that differed from place to place and were, consequently, substantially different experiences."

Which original vinyl version do you think sounds better?

[jkelman]

"Also, with the US and UK vinyl versions coming from two different masters—but neither of them the original master tape, from which this edition's original stereo mixes are sourced—it becomes patently clear that those suggesting the vinyl release they bought, back in the day, is somehow better need answer a most salient question: which vinyl version? After all, it was common practice, at the time, to have masters that differed from place to place and were, consequently, substantially different experiences."

Which original vinyl version do you think sounds better?

It's impossible to compare as one is a banded promo so, as I wrote, every five minutes or so an arbitrary fade-out/fade-in was inserted to make radio stations believe this was not four side-long tracks....

The best original mix master is the one that is used for the 24/192 original mix included on the Blu Ray....first time this master has been used digital age, so if you prefer the original mix (I don't), that is the one for you. Again, as I wrote and quoted from the liners about audio sources, the vinyl needle drops are not intended to be some audiophile experience. But the original mix using the master tape being used for the first time in the digital arena sounds great to me...and has not been tweaked in any way (bad Rhino! bad Rhino!!!!); it is a flat transfer from the original master tape source, into 24/192 two-track digital files, so you're getting the best - specifically, importantly, the truest, most accurate-sounding - version of the original mix that you are likely to hear.

No, it ain't vinyl (which matters not to me, but that's just my opinion). But the needle drops aren't either. They are more for curiosity's sake, while the 24/192 original mix from this first-time-heard master tape is intended to represent the best sounding original stereo mix since the advent of CDs.

Having only heard the 1994 Atlantic and 2003 Rhino, I'm certainly no expert on any other potential "original mix/original master (again: which original master?)" releases; but the flat-transferred master of the original mix in high res on the Blu Ray of this Definitive Edition certainly trumps both to my ears.

Hope this helps!

[lak611]

If s impossible to compare as one is a banded promo, so, as I wrote, every five minutes or so an arbitrary fade-out/fade-in was inserted to make radio stations believe this was not four side-long tracks....

The best original mix master is the one that is used for the 24/192 original mix included on the Blu Ray....first time this master has been used digital age, ne if you prefer the original mix (I don't), that is the one for you. Again, as I wrote and quoted from the liners about audio sources, the vinyl needle drops are not intended to be some audiophile experience. But the original mix using the master tape being used for the first time in the digital arena sounds great to me...and has not been tweaked in any way (bad Rhino! bad Rhino!!!!); it is a flat transfer from the original master tape source, into 24/192 two-track digital files, so you're getting the best - but most importantly, truest, most accurate-sounding version of the original mix that you are likely to hear.

No, it ain't vinyl. But needle drops aren't either. They are more for curiosity's sake, while the 24/192 original mix from this particular master is intended to represent the best sounding original stereo mix since the advent of CDs.

Having only heard the 1994 Atlantic and 2003 Rhino, I'm no expert on any other potential "original mix/original master (again: which original master?)" releases, but the flat-transferred master of the original mix in high res on the Blu Ray of this Definitive Edition certainly trumps both to my ears.

My vinyl is the US 1973 Atlantic version.

I don't have a Blu-ray player, just regular DVD, CD, and turntable.

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk

[Bazcrim]

I am curious about the hi res original mix, seemingly found while sourcing tapes for this release. I wonder why this was done, by who and what was the intention for it, when it seems never to have been released.

[jkelman]

My vinyl is the US 1973 Atlantic version.

I don't have a Blu-ray player, just regular DVD, CD, and turntable.

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk

With 4K about to supersede regular HD Blu Ray, it may be time

The DVD has new mixes -stereo & surround in high res - along with the original mix flat-transferred at 24/96, rather than the Blu Ray's 24/192 (but to be clear for those unaware: 24/192 is not twice as good as 24/96).

So no alternate takes, or single edits, instrumental mixes or needle drops...but at least you get both mixes, in best possible version since the advent of digital media...

[jkelman]

I am curious about the hi res original mix, seemingly found while sourcing tapes for this release. I wonder why this was done, by who and what was the intention for it, when it seems never to have been released.

Afraid I can't answer that one. Wish I knew...sorry!

[lak611]

With 4K about to supersede regular HD Blu Ray, it may be time

The DVD has new mixes -stereo & surround in high res, along with the original mix flat-transferred at 24/96. So no alternate takes, but at least you get both mixes, in best possible version since the advent of digital media...

I really don't watch much TV. I'm much more interested in audio. I can't see investing in video players when I rarely watch anything but just listen.

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk

[per anporth]

On a "not 'arf" aside - it's a double negative of "not half", intended to convey extra affirmation! - it's also one of the catch phrases used by dear old Alan Freeman, a Radio 1 dj who was a real promoter of prog, especially on his Saturday afternoon show in the 70s. (You can hear "Fluff" introducing ELP on the recording of their 1991 Royal Albert Hall show).

Anyway - you've done it again, John! - reading this review has prompted me to go & order the cd/blu-ray...

A question about the music, rather than the production - when you revisited this, how did the "content" of the music strike you? - I've always got the impression that, for a lot of Yes fans, the side 1 is their favourite, followed by sides 2, 4 then 3. I think the Cobo Hall live version on Yesshows (possibly Yes's crowning glory) may have changed some opinions.

At any rate, over time, I've found my response being that the album gets better & better through each side.

In some ways, side 1 feels like it occupies the same sort of musical territory as Close to the Edge (the track). Side 2 is the place where they begin to transition out of the old music, & start looking towards new sonic areas... Which sides 3 & 4 push way beyond what had come before. These two sides contain breathtakingly adventurous music - astonishingly so, given how "mainstream" Yes were at that point.

These were the sides that Relayer took off from, & in some ways developed even further. But, even 4 decades later, they sound vibrant, exciting, exhilarating.

[yamishogun]

I really don't watch much TV. I'm much more interested in audio. I can't see investing in video players when I rarely watch anything but just listen.

Good to know that there are others out there like me!

[Mister Triscuits]

On a "not 'arf" aside - it's a double negative of "not half", intended to convey extra affirmation!

Cf. Ian Dury: "There Ain't Half Been Some Clever Bastards."

[yesstiles]

I thought someone was reviewing Gastwirt's 1994 remaster when I saw the altered Gastwirt Topograhic Oceans artwork at the top of the thread!

Thankfully things have improved since then.

[jkelman]

I thought someone was reviewing Gastwirt's 1994 remaster when I saw the altered Gastwirt Topograhic Oceans artwork at the top of the thread!

Thankfully things have improved since then.

They have,. That cover, btw, is the one amazon uses for the 3CD/Blu Ray Panegyric Edition. That tends to be the source I use.

[jkelman]

I really don't watch much TV. I'm much more interested in audio. I can't see investing in video players when I rarely watch anything but just listen.

But you don't have to watch the Blu Ray (there's nothing to watch anyway); it's more about providing high res stereo and surround mixes plus a whack of bonus extra features. And the high res new stereo mix definitely sounds better than the admittedly very good CD version.

[jkelman]

Anyway - you've done it again, John! - reading this review has prompted me to go & order the cd/blu-ray...

....sorry....

A question about the music, rather than the production - when you revisited this, how did the "content" of the music strike you? - I've always got the impression that, for a lot of Yes fans, the side 1 is their favourite, followed by sides 2, 4 then 3. I think the Cobo Hall live version on Yesshows (possibly Yes's crowning glory) may have changed some opinions.

I tried very hard not to look at this as four sides but, instead, as one 81-minute piece. I actually never listen to anything but the whole album....

At any rate, over time, I've found my response being that the album gets better & better through each side.

I'd agree with that.

In some ways, side 1 feels like it occupies the same sort of musical territory as Close to the Edge (the track). Side 2 is the place where they begin to transition out of the old music, & start looking towards new sonic areas... Which sides 3 & 4 push way beyond what had come before. These two sides contain breathtakingly adventurous music - astonishingly so, given how "mainstream" Yes were at that point.

These make sense too.

These were the sides that Relayer took off from, & in some ways developed even further. But, even 4 decades later, they sound vibrant, exciting, exhilarating.

Absolutely....though will have to think about this being where Relayer began, since that album was so inexorably coloured by Moraz's presence...

[jkelman]

Good to know that there are others out there like me!

But you must both realize that, in a release like this it's ALL about the audio. There are plenty of albums being released as "Pure Blu Ray Audio" format, where there might be a static image....or not. But Blu Ray is as much a high resolution audio format as it is a video one. So investing in a decent BR player doesn't have to be about video...and you get higher resolution (and lossless as well) on the BR; DVDs don't have the space. Dual-layer BRs can store up to 50Gb; dual-layer DVDs? 8.2, I think, or thereabouts.

I have an OPPO BDP-105 that can be a kickers Blu Ray video player, but is also an exceptional audio player with a great built-in DAC.

Time to re-evaluate what you think BR is....with all due respect, guys.

[Sunlight Caller]

Thanks John that was a really informative review and one that has me filling my Burning Shed shopping cart with all Yes Panegyric Blu-Rays to date, as I have kept on postponing that moment, moment, moment... moment

I still have not yet bought a blu-ray / 5.1 system, but I'm going to research an acquire one soon, as I think I'm missing an audio experience that will both excite and enthral. I have blu-ray video / surround sound discs that I cannot watch or listen to yet either (Big Big Train's Stone & Steel, various Rob Reed / Magenta projects) so the timing is perfect to take that logical next step.

In the interim time though, I am assuming even the stereo audio discs in the TFTO set will have the sonic improvements (drums that sound less like biscuit tins etc?) of which your review speaks?

[jkelman]

Thanks John that was a really informative review and one that has me filling my Burning Shed shopping cart with all Yes Panegyric Blu-Rays to date, as I have kept on postponing that moment, moment, moment... moment

Thanks!! ....and welcome....to the dark side....BWAAAAAHAAAAAAHAAAAAAA!!!!!

In the interim time though, I am assuming even the stereo audio discs in the TFTO set will have the sonic improvements (drums that sound less like biscuit tins etc?) of which your review speaks?

Indeed, they will!

[2000jw]

I had forgotten about the association to the 'Autobiography of a Yogi'. A friend gave me a copy several years ago and it's long overdue a reading. Have you read it?

I haven't read it (but recall picking up a copy in a Californian bookshop long ago, and thinking it a daunting piece of work). Bill Bruford's autobiography describes how Jon Anderson was introduced to this book by Jamie Muir (King Crimson's eccentric percussionist) at a party in the Brufords' London flat on their wedding day.