FEATURED CD: King Crimson - Lizard

[MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER]

LTIA
Starless
Discipline
Lizard

[adewolf]

What's not to like

[Reid]

Great drum sound, great playing, great tunes. 10/10.

[LeFrog]

One thing I noticed is that virtually every review of Lizard I've ever read, including the most positive ones, make absolutely no mention of Indoor Games and Happy Family. It's as if no one had anything to say about these 2 songs, even those who consider the album a masterpiece. For me they are the difficult songs on the album and the most difficult to enjoy, especially the free jazz of Happy Family: it's a bit hard to see what they were aiming for with this one.

[Reid]

One thing I noticed is that virtually every review of Lizard I've ever read, including the most positive ones, make absolutely no mention of Indoor Games and Happy Family. It's as if no one had anything to say about these 2 songs, even those who consider the album a masterpiece. For me they are the difficult songs on the album and the most difficult to enjoy, especially the free jazz of Happy Family: it's a bit hard to see what they were aiming for with this one.

Happy Family is brilliant. It contains some of the best fusion of musical elements and styles I've ever heard. I've rarely ever heard a rock band pull off something this good other than Zappa's ensembles.

[LeFrog]

Happy Family is brilliant. It contains some of the best fusion of musical elements and styles I've ever heard. I've rarely ever heard a rock band pull off something this good other than Zappa's ensembles.

Congrats, you've just written what is probably the first ever review of this song!

[Reid]

Congrats, you've just written what is probably the first ever review of this song!

My comments hardly qualify as a review, but that particular tune is a favorite.

[Mister Triscuits]

I always thought "Happy Family" usually was singled out for comment, since it's obligatory to point out the Beatley subject matter.

[jkelman]

One thing I noticed is that virtually every review of Lizard I've ever read, including the most positive ones, make absolutely no mention of Indoor Games and Happy Family. It's as if no one had anything to say about these 2 songs, even those who consider the album a masterpiece. For me they are the difficult songs on the album and the most difficult to enjoy, especially the free jazz of Happy Family: it's a bit hard to see what they were aiming for with this one.

Well, without wanting to sound self-congratulatory, my review did:

Gordon Haskell's voice was always considered somewhat weak, yet there's no other Crim alum who could bring the kind of near-insanity he does when delivering lyricist Peter Sinfield's absurdist "Indoor Games," his allegory to The Beatles on "Happy Family," or frightening madness of "Cirkus."

Admittedly, i didn't get much into the music with that quote, but I was aiming more for big picture with the review, when it came to much of the music, as these kinds of assessments I think applied across the board..and I'd yet to begin making longer form writing my norm, so my review of Lizard, while typical All About Jazz review length, would likely be a completely different beast were I to review it today. That said, for example:

Crimson was always an improvising group despite the often strict confines of structure, but here the group, despite its fractured personnel, was heading into uncharted territory.

Lizard was, ultimately, the culmination of Fripp's jazzier proclivities, with Tippett back alongside other jazzers including cornetist Mark Charig and trombonist Nick Evans, both alums of Soft Machine's Fourth (Sony, 1971). Saxophonist/flautist Mel Collins, who'd become an official Crim on the strength of his Poseidon work, and who'd continue on with the Islands band, managed to traverse the dissolving boundaries between Tippett's more jagged spontaneity and the requisite lyricism of "Lady of the Dancing Waters."

and

Drummer Andy McCulloch was, in some ways, cut from the same cloth as departed Crimson co-founder Michael Giles, capable of navigating Fripp's most oblique writing to date on the side-long, epic and episodic title track. Symphonic concerns mesh with unfettered liberation throughout the record, as Fripp remains almost entirely avoidant of standard rock guitar posturing. That said, his silky, sustaining solo on "Lizard"'s hypnotic coda, and his masterful layering of electric and acoustic guitars throughout the album make clear that Fripp—responsible for writing all of Lizard's music alongside lyricist Sinfield—was already one of the most inventive guitarists operating in the rock sphere. Wilson's lucent remix reveals Fripp's brilliant but often dramatically understated playing, as in his lead-in to "Cirkus"' final verse. Compositionally, this is unequivocally Fripp's most advanced work to date, not to mention penning the five scariest mellotron chords in rock history on "Cirkus."

[arturs]

For me, side 1 is brilliant from start to finish, and I have felt that way ever since the needle first hit vinyl around '82 or so. Side 2 has been a grower. I actually wish we had Haskell on the first part of the suite instead of, or maybe in addition to, Anderson. The Anderson part is too airy fairy for me. A dissonant Haskell harmony vocal might have improved it.

One thing, though: I have never ever gotten a friend interested in this album. Hanging out with my high school friends who liked Tull and Floyd and the like, and who would tolerate Court and even Discipline, the only response I ever got about Lizard as "turn that shit off!"

[Trane]

This was actually always my favorite Crimson. Whatever made this the outlier for everyone else who loved the band was must have been what appealed to me, as I didn't like the pre-Wetton stuff that much. I've totally come around to it now, and actually find Islands to be my favorite.

Well, I did WTF heavily when I bought it at first, but it became quickly a fave of mine

My Fav KC album since the day I got it. It has a mysterious and enchanting vibe that no other KC album has. I also love the acoustic moments from RF on it. Great drum sound, great playing, great tunes. 10/10.

Well, I'm not big on Lady Of Dancing Water, but still like it enough... However that closing Big Top thingie was definitely not a good idea... It kind of ruins the Lizard suite (as it's thankfully not part of it)

^^^
Agree. I love the production and off-center feel. There was a progressive radio program on WGTB (Georgetown University in Washington DC) years ago called Indoor Games which used the theme song of the same name of course - that's where I heard it for he first time and it knocked my socks off. I had never heard anything like it and it seemed to teeter on the edge of insanity to me. Love it, love it, love it. BTW - they didn't play a thing from this album on their recent tour, did they?

AFAIAC, this is the first real Fripp album (well excluding GG&F)... ITCOTCK was mainly a Lake & McDonald album (Fripp didn't write much on it)... and Poseidon's A -sde is more or less a repeat of the debut... As for the flipside, Cat Food is a McD/Lake track (if memory serves) and the Holtz piecve is a adaptation... Soooo, the first Fripp album for Crimlson is Lizard ... and what a splendid job it is... too bad Fripp doesn't like it... and prefer the mediocre Ismlands to it.

My favorite of the first 4.

I never had any struggle getting into it. It might have been all of the weed I was consuming in HS.

During Battle of the Glass Tears, I remember feeling the hot winds of the cannon balls whizzing out of my speakers and landing on the back wall of my bedroom.

I do not like Islands at all. I've tried many times but I just don't like it, and don't even own it anymore.

Bill

TBH, I only really like Prelude, but it's a UFO for them.

[bill g]

And here's a side of Robert Fripp that you didn't expect:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64VGyoIyBgc

[jkelman]

However that closing Big Top thingie was definitely not a good idea... It kind of ruins the Lizard suite (as it's thankfully not part of it)

For me, "Big Top" is the perfect closer...taking an album that began as a nightmare ("Cirkus") and conclude it in an equally nightmarish fashion. I remember that hearing "Big Top," every time, caused my skin to crawl....



AFAIAC, this is the first real Fripp album (well excluding GG&F)... ITCOTCK was mainly a Lake & McDonald album (Fripp didn't write much on it)... and Poseidon's A -sde is more or less a repeat of the debut... As for the flipside, Cat Food is a McD/Lake track (if memory serves) and the Holtz piecve is a adaptation... Soooo, the first Fripp album for Crimlson is Lizard ... and what a splendid job it is... too bad Fripp doesn't like it... and prefer the mediocre Ismlands to it.



During Battle of the Glass Tears, I remember feeling the hot winds of the cannon balls whizzing out of my speakers and landing on the back wall of my bedroom.



TBH, I only really like Prelude, but it's a UFO for them.[/QUOTE]

[3LockBox]

I can't get into any pre-Larks era Crimson. Tried, but failed.

[polmico]

ITCOTCK is mainly a Sinfield/McDonald album. Not Lake.

[mogrooves]

One thing I noticed is that virtually every review of Lizard I've ever read, including the most positive ones, make absolutely no mention of Indoor Games and Happy Family. It's as if no one had anything to say about these 2 songs, even those who consider the album a masterpiece.

A demented masterwork, particularly the first three pieces......

Just for the record, don'cha know....

[NogbadTheBad]

There's almost a weird poppy feel to the first three tracks.

And me

[GuitarGeek]

One thing I noticed is that virtually every review of Lizard I've ever read, including the most positive ones, make absolutely no mention of Indoor Games and Happy Family.

I don't know about "reviews' as such, but Happy Family is one of the more discussed songs on the album. I for one mentioned it in my earlier post on this thread, specifically commenting on the ring modulator vocals on this track.

[Svetonio]

Slightly off-topic, I'm always wondering that the people who are declared themselves as the hardcore fans of avant, thus they prefer more that "avant", instrumental side of King Crimson than the KC' songs and who will always put LTiA and Red above Lizard at their lists, that they never or rarely put THRAK on a list.

[Trane]

One thing I noticed is that virtually every review of Lizard I've ever read, including the most positive ones, make absolutely no mention of Indoor Games and Happy Family. It's as if no one had anything to say about these 2 songs, even those who consider the album a masterpiece. For me they are the difficult songs on the album and the most difficult to enjoy, especially the free jazz of Happy Family: it's a bit hard to see what they were aiming for with this one.

Well, I was planning to rewrite (and had started to actually) all my Crimson reviews (like the one quoted in the first post) when I got my laptop stolen in the trunk of my car and I had no back-up (I did find a skeleton structure of all my PA reviews in a USB stick, though). the theft did kind of stop me dead in my tracks, as I haven't posted anything since.

I was planning to indeed talk a lot more of those two tracks, especially about the madness of Indoor Games (that laugh is absolutely wonderful too)

For me, side 1 is brilliant from start to finish, and I have felt that way ever since the needle first hit vinyl around '82 or so. Side 2 has been a grower. I actually wish we had Haskell on the first part of the suite instead of, or maybe in addition to, Anderson. The Anderson part is too airy fairy for me. A dissonant Haskell harmony vocal might have improved it.

TBH, I really love Haskell's voice on what he did for Lizard and Poseidon (though TBH, I don't appreciate his voive in his solo career much)... I think it's perfect for the zaniness of the A-side tracks (bar maybe Dancing Waters)... but I'm really into Anderson's vocals in Rupert, and though I might have liked to hear a Haskell scruffy-vocal version, but am not convinced it would've worked as good.

Slightly off-topic, I'm always wondering that the people who are declared themselves as the hardcore fans of avant, thus they prefer more that "avant", instrumental side of King Crimson than the KC' songs and who will always put LTiA and Red above Lizard at their lists, that they never or rarely put THRAK on a list.

Thrak owes everything to LTIA, IMHO

"Kaleidoscopic" is the word I settled on for this album too.

I like that too.

I don't get the faux-outrage either. I wouldn't go so far to say 'it sucks' but I also think Islands is certainly one of their weaker albums, all things considered.

Well, if I understand why Fripp kind of ignored this album in touring during the 70's (no tour after its release and a very different line-up for Islands), I don't really get why he still does in recent years (especially admitting he really likes it much mire since hearing Wilson's working on it), given that Islands is a fairly weak album.

Well with Fripp shying away from it(and Haskell hating it), it doesn't stand much chance to be featured heavily anytime soon

Funny, I just listened to this the other day, and I still totally connect with it. This has always been my favorite KC album. It always amazed me how there is such a strong underlying mood to this album that is perfectly reflected in some of the pictures on the cover artwork. Hard to explain, but I don't hear this mood on any other record, but it is really apparent to me this time of year, with cloudy afternoons that are not cold yet and are somehow appealing. Every track (except Big Top) is sublime. 'Lady of the Dancing Water' floors me as to just how hauntingly beautiful and melancholy music can be. The acoustic guitar and flute aren't terribly complex, but so perfectly placed. Somehow how Gordon Haskell's voice is perfectly suited to this song. 'Bolero-The Peacock's Tale' is my favorite of all, and shows just what Fripp can be as a composer. And other tracks show he was so good on acoustic guitar, something he neglected not long after. Also I really like Fripp's tasty keyboards, something else he no longer does. Keith Tippett's piano playing is very impressive as is the horn section.

Eloquently put, though Dancing Waters' beauty does escape me a bit, eclipsed by the other three tracks on that side of the album.

Funny...while I would agree that Gordon Haskell is far from my favourite vocalist, somehow he works on this record. I'm not even sure why...perhaps it's the husky quality of his voice and his at-times over-the-top delivery, but I honestly find it hard to imagine many other singers (other than Jakko Jakszyk, who is now singing Cirkus on tour with the current Crim....man, I'd love to hear that!) doing it justice...

Werd hing is that I don't like Haskell's voice in his solo career... And the only thing I do like at all is Earworm, which BTW is soooooo much better done by Stackridge on Extravaganza (maybe my fave Stackridge moment).

[Svetonio]

(...)



Thrak owes everything to LTIA, IMHO

Well of course that Mr Fripp started with slightly "avant" instrumentals on Larks' Tongues in Aspic. Nobody deny that. And LTiA is a great album of its time.
However, that lack of THRAK on the numerous lists created by people who more or less recently started to celebrate avant, that's pretty strange, isn't? I mean, these KC' instrumentals from LTiA the orginal LP from 1973, are now, let's say, "naive" in comparision with the instrumentals on THRAK. But hey, since avant is something fashionable in prog community, a number of avant imposters appeared at the forums!

[Trane]

Well of course that Mr Fripp started with slightly "avant" instrumentals on Larks' Tongues in Aspic. Nobody deny that. And LTiA is a great album of its time.
However, that lack of THRAK on the numerous lists created by people who more or less recently started to celebrate avant, that's pretty strange, isn't? I mean, these KC' instrumentals from LTiA the orginal LP from 1973, are now, let's say, "naive" in comparision with the instrumentals on THRAK. But hey, since avant is something fashionable in prog community, a number of avant imposters appeared at the forums!

in my case, Thrak would find itself above the three 80's album, Scarcity and TCOL but +/- tied with TPTB, S&BB and Islands (I tend to almost prefer Vrooom, BTW)

So in a top 5 (mine anyways), it has little chance of appearing, but could appear in a top 10, if live albums are not included
So you may have a slight point at Thrak being more mature or more perfect than LTIA, but in terms of history, it has 20 years less of endearement with crimheads and has a déjà-entendu feel

I'm not sure how to read your last comment avant prog being "fashionable" (as it is a fairly small share of progheads, though they might be somewhat over-represented here in PE) and how those who like it being impostors (I supose you mean poseur, in this case)

[happytheman]

ITCOTCK is mainly a Sinfield/McDonald album. Not Lake.

Lake wrote a chunk of 21st Century and I suspect a good portion of Epitaph..

[happytheman]

For me, side 1 is brilliant from start to finish, and I have felt that way ever since the needle first hit vinyl around '82 or so. Side 2 has been a grower. I actually wish we had Haskell on the first part of the suite instead of, or maybe in addition to, Anderson. The Anderson part is too airy fairy for me. A dissonant Haskell harmony vocal might have improved it.

For me it's some of Andersons best vocals..

[Trane]

ITCOTCK is mainly a Sinfield/McDonald album. Not Lake.

Lake wrote a chunk of 21st Century and I suspect a good portion of Epitaph..

Yup, Fripp only wrote part of the t/t in that first album

My take is that on Court, McD is 60%, Lake 30% and Fripp 10% for the music and 100% sinfield for lyrics
On Poseidon, Fripp only wrote the Peace interludes, if memory serves, the rest is McD and Lake
However on Lizard, he wrote 100%, but still had to share 50% of royalties with Sinfield (lyrics)