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Thread: Where would a post-Neo history of the progressive rock genre begin?

  1. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by klothos View Post
    hence the word 'gradient'
    I have to say that in all my years of studying vocabulary words that's not one I'm too familiar with.

  2. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sputnik View Post
    The last big show I was at was King Crimson last year. Most of the audience was basically my age or older. Were there some younger people? Sure. But it was overwhelmingly geezers. Ian Anderson a few years ago was the same way, and Emerson/Lake before that. If fans of these newer bands are flooding into older Prog, where are they at shows like these, not to mention the festivals? I just don't see it.
    I don't see it either, though I'm not using the advanced metrics of concert t-shirts as my proof, so we may be wrong. I think when we start referencing the younger audience, there's a stipulation to be made: this demographic is certainly *receptive* to prog, or new bands with proggy tendencies, but they aren't the ones keeping the scene afloat. It's still the same old core that has been for the last 20+ years. "Prog" is no longer a pejorative to a new audience, but it hasn't become mainstream. I'm in full agreement with Spyros:

    Mars Volta, Tool, Muse, post-Signify Porcupine Tree are mostly indie bands with some prog influences.

  3. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Man View Post
    No, they aren't flooding to the shows. I never said they were. I think that's part of the problem. However, that doesn't mean they aren't out there.
    And I never said they weren't out there, in fact I specifically said that surely some are delving deeper. I just don't see it having a particularly big impact. It could well be that I'm not hanging at the right sites or going to the right shows, but I do peruse Prog Archives and am somewhat plugged in to what's going on. There are surely younger bands, but younger fans are a pretty rare commodity in my estimation. It's interesting to me that you say "I think that's part of the problem." This sort of implies that at some level we're in agreement about this.

    Rather than get into the "what is Prog?" discussion, I guess I'd just ask you what exactly did you see around 2005 that marked a change? I didn't perceive it, but you could well be right and I missed it, so it would be interesting to know more about this. I also wonder what impact you feel Radiohead and Mars Volta really had on "Prog," however one might define it. To me, these bands came and went and had little impact on either the underground Prog scene or "Progressive Rock" at some larger level. I just don't see things being changed much by them, which ties into the point above. The world in 2016 feels much to me like the world in 2000/2001, except for the changes in the way music is now distributed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Man View Post
    Are tons of younger people getting into Yes and PG era Genesis these days? No, probably not. Then again that would apply to people of any age. Why should they? They aren't currently popular. With the exception of Pink Floyd and possibly Rush(to some degrere)who are seemingly eternally popular most of them are getting into the genre through the newer prog bands(ones that I have already mentioned).
    The question I have is this... are they getting into the "genre," or are they just getting into the new, young bands they know? I think it's the latter, because I see so little matriculation of younger fans into the wider scene, not just of older bands, but current bands like Sanguine Hum, Thieves' Kitchen, Not a Good Sign, Deus Ex Machina, etc. That's what I'm trying to say. You say you see it differently, but seem to agree that they aren't flooding to other types of Prog shows and that this is something of a problem. If that isn't happening, what do you see as the impact of these younger bands that have gotten some mainstream success, other than their own success?

    Bill

  4. #179
    Member Digital_Man's Avatar
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    Sputnik, you don't answer my questions but you expect me to answer yours?

    You keep asking me the same questions and I keep giving you the same answers.

    Anyway, I already told you that when The Mars Volta and Porcupine Tree hit the charts in 2005 that's what I consider to be a sort of awareness of prog still being made among those who weren't already hardcore prog fans. And no I'm not saying the whole genre became mainstream then just that people might not already have been prog fans became more aware of the term prog. The fact that you don't consider those bands to be prog does not change how I feel about it. I'm not going to change my answer just to suit your definitions of prog.

    You don't see the younger fans but you also probably haven't spent time on progarchives or taken polls on the ages of the members either like I have. I know what the f*** I'm talking about. You can't go by just who shows up at the concerts and festivals. That being said I recently saw a show where about 200 people in were in the audience and it was mostly younger folks(this was Haken, Thank you scientist(who played at Progday one year)and the Tea Club.

    Do all of these younger folks who go to shows like Haken, Riverside or whoever become prog fans? No, but then again neither does everyone who goes to see Yes or Genesis or King Crimson or whoever. Not even everyone who goes to prog festivals are prog fans. Sometimes people go because their friends or husbands or wives are going or maybe they just want to see one or two bands. Also, and it's kind of obvious but I'll say it anyway not everyone gets into the same kind of prog not to mention has the same definition of prog.

    By the way, D.E.M's first album came out in 1991 so I would hardly call them newer.

    If you want to continue this discussion by all means send me a pm otherwise I'm done with this discussion and we'll have to agree to disagree(it's just going around in circles imo).
    Last edited by Digital_Man; 09-23-2016 at 12:39 AM.

  5. #180
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sputnik View Post
    There are surely younger bands, but younger fans are a pretty rare commodity in my estimation. It's interesting to me that you say "I think that's part of the problem." This sort of implies that at some level we're in agreement about this.

    l
    I generally agree with you, Bill, in this back and forth, but if we want to get some input on the state of Progressive Rock with the young generation, wouldn't it make sense to ask one who has his finger on the pulse of both? I'm referring to our young Mr. Beabout.

    The music industry below the LCD level is in a state of wreckage, so it's tough to make any appraisals based on modern popular music of any stripe or level of popularity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Man View Post
    I guess it depends on what shows you go to. I'm in my mid forties and I am actually glad that I am no longer one of the younger people at the festivals and shows.

    Sow what current bands do you consider to be prog(if any)? Bent Knee? Most of their members are in their twenties. There are a lot of prog bands these days with younger members. No, not all of them are prog fans but I bet a lot are. Also, does a band have to sound like they are from the seventies to be considered a prog band(ie Wobbler)?

    [If fans of these newer bands are flooding into older Prog, where are they at shows like these, not to mention the festivals? I just don't see it.]

    No, they aren't flooding to the shows. I never said they were. I think that's part of the problem. However, that doesn't mean they aren't out there. I have spent lots of time on youtube, progarchives(where you fill find plenty of younger prog fans) and on other sites and am also a member on a Rush fan site. I know for a fact that there are plenty of younger prog fans out there(whether they are into older prog or newer prog it doesn't matter to me). But I do admit that they don't show up in droves at the festivals. I am starting to see more though like I said.

    Are tons of younger people getting into Yes and PG era Genesis these days? No, probably not. Then again that would apply to people of any age. Why should they? They aren't currently popular. With the exception of Pink Floyd and possibly Rush(to some degrere)who are seemingly eternally popular most of them are getting into the genre through the newer prog bands(ones that I have already mentioned). I feel like I keep repeating myself here.
    I always remember the audience of different ages at the concerts. I started as a kid to go to the gigs in 1975; that year, I saw - at the concerts in Belgrade - Santana, Return to Forever, Jethro Tull and Deep Purple with Smak as an opening act. And those who were older than me cca ten years, they were already bearded, I mean those who have started to go at rock concerts in the Sixties, we were at the same concerts in 1975 and they looked like they were old - in my then-perception; not to mention those even older jazz fans (now very old jazz purists) who were looked like they were going astray at Return To Forever's concert in Belgrade in 1975.
    Rock audience, in general, was more or less complete the kids only in the Sixties; it will never be so again.
    Last summer, in the region, I saw two big gigs at open air - David Gilmour in Pula's ancient roman amphitheatrum - 10 000 crowd, and Smak in Belgrade - 50 000 crowd, and it was very different ages there. Same this August at Uriah Heep concert in Zaječar - a lot of kids in the audience.
    Last edited by Svetonio; 09-23-2016 at 05:18 AM.

  7. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Man View Post
    Sputnik, you don't answer my questions but you expect me to answer yours?
    Well, I was trying to redirect the conversation into what I thought was a more productive area. Clearly I failed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Man View Post
    Anyway, I already told you that when The Mars Volta and Porcupine Tree hit the charts in 2005 that's what I consider to be a sort of awareness of prog still being made among those who weren't already hardcore prog fans.
    OK, perhaps I missed that because this makes it a bit clearer to me. Sorry to make you repeat yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Man View Post
    The fact that you don't consider those bands to be prog does not change how I feel about it. I'm not going to change my answer just to suit your definitions of prog.
    I wouldn't exactly put it that way. Obviously PT has a place in the "Prog scene," and I acknowledge that. TMV as well to some extent, though their roots are perhaps more outside than inside the Prog scene per se. But I accept both bands as being in the sphere of what we talk about here.

    What I wonder, though, is how non-hardcore Prog fans who like these bands think of them? Are they "Prog Rock" to them, or are they just PT and TMV, who play music they like? And if these non-hardcore fans do somehow link them to "Prog" and explore further, does the connection actually resonate with them? So it's not really about what I consider "Prog" or not. The question in my mind is whether the popularity of these bands is really drawing any significant fanbase deeper into the types of bands we generally talk about here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Man View Post
    You don't see the younger fans but you also probably haven't spent time on progarchives or taken polls on the ages of the members either like I have. I know what the f*** I'm talking about. You can't go by just who shows up at the concerts and festivals.
    I have lurked a bit on Prog Archives, but not for some time and I certainly haven't polled anyone about their ages. Perhaps things have changed over there and there, and perhaps it is due to exposure to younger bands drawing a younger audience. If so, that counters at some level what I've experienced at concerts, festivals, and other Prog outlets. I still don't perceive a large scale change or influx, but there may well be larger numbers of younger fans at PA than I had imagined.

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Man View Post
    That being said I recently saw a show where about 200 people in were in the audience and it was mostly younger folks(this was Haken, Thank you scientist(who played at Progday one year)and the Tea Club.
    Nice. I wonder if any of them thought they were at a "Prog" show, or were they just there to see these hip, artsy bands? Would any of them go to see a Prog festival if one of these bands were playing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Man View Post
    By the way, D.E.M's first album came out in 1991 so I would hardly call them newer.
    I know. I mention them because they are "current" with a new album out this year that has gotten some attention. Younger fans exploring the genre would likely hear about them along with the other bands I mentioned regardless of when their first album came out. I've always thought TMV fans might like DeM, but I doubt many of them delved deep enough to discover them, if they even delved further in "Prog" at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Man View Post
    If you want to continue this discussion by all means send me a pm otherwise I'm done with this discussion and we'll have to agree to disagree(it's just going around in circles imo).
    Well, hopefully were back on track and there's no need for that. I think we just crossed wires, I really wasn't trying to be obstinate and I was enjoying the discussion.

    Bill

  8. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    I generally agree with you, Bill, in this back and forth, but if we want to get some input on the state of Progressive Rock with the young generation, wouldn't it make sense to ask one who has his finger on the pulse of both? I'm referring to our young Mr. Beabout.
    I talked to Ian a bit a Prog Day last year. IIRC, he didn't see any kind of mass movement among his friends and acquaintances to the music he likes. I think he felt like something of an island in that regard, as most of us here do. That's my memory. But that may not be the whole story, and he's free to chime in if he wants.

    I also talked with the Mercury Tree guys about similar stuff, specifically about what types of gigs they get in Portland. They talked about actually playing in their own basement studio for friends. I'm not sure if that was the alpha and omega of their gigging, but that's the thing I recall. I have no idea what their local audience is. I know they did a little tour earlier in the year. They tried to get us on board, but the timing was bad for us. I wonder how that went for them, did anyone see it?

    Bill

  9. #184
    False Number 9 Pr33t's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sputnik View Post
    Nice. I wonder if any of them thought they were at a "Prog" show, or were they just there to see these hip, artsy bands? Would any of them go to see a Prog festival if one of these bands were playing?
    Completely anecdotal, but it would be great to hear from anyone who just attended ProgDay as to whether or not there were more young people than usual. Were they brought in by a band like Bent Knee, or was it just younger guys like Ian who are already a part of the scene?

    I straddle the line a bit here (I'm 35). I became aware of the prog scene in 1999/2000 and attended the second NEARfest as my first big prog event. There were a handful of other people about my age, but the audience was predominantly older guys. Through the ProgDays an NFs I attended after, there were younger people coming more often, but overall, I never thought it was a significant number or anything that would point to a level of growth that we're discussing here.

    A better comparison was seeing Magma for the last two years here in NYC. I had seen them in 2010 when they played the Highline Ballroom to a mostly seated crowd of older dudes. My friends and I were definitely the largest group there on the younger end of the spectrum. The last two years playing at Le Poisson Rouge, the audience seemed to be predominantly in their 20s-30s instead. Magma might be a bit of an outlier as they have a cult reputation, and draw new fans from places other than the prog establishment. Honestly, I think this avant end of the spectrum is where the prog scene has always brought people in from; people already predisposed to liking "weird" music who stumbled across these bands that are still linked to the prog scene. I'd doubt the modern symph bands are what is bringing them to shows.

    Another example was Sensations Fix playing a few years back. They've gained a huge rep with the hipster set, completely removed from the prog context, and exist as a band because Falsini found a bunch of young guys into the music. When I saw them in Brooklyn, they played at a communal yoga studio in Bushwick, the most trendy neighborhood there is. I was one of the oldest people in the room, other than Franco. I also saw Faust in Bushwick earlier this year, and it was predominantly young hipsters. This goes back to what Spyros mentioned earlier - these kids are finding proggy things through the coolness of Krautrock and other outre things. I have no proof, but I can't imagine they've found these shows because someone described Radiohead or Porcupine Tree as prog. I'd put money on the fact they've never heard of PT.
    Last edited by Pr33t; 09-23-2016 at 11:27 AM.

  10. #185
    I'm here for the moosic NogbadTheBad's Avatar
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    Having been to Muse & Radiohead gigs I see very little connection to a 'prog scene' with these types of bands. It's just people going to see bands they like. Then there's the Bent Knee's of this world where you have a much younger demographic at the gig, I've seen them a bunch of times and it's usually predominately young hipsters, young muso's and few aged prog rock fans. Where I do think there is a scene is with Porcupine Tree / TMV type bands where I do see a lot of people who seem to have either come to the band from a prog background or have explored more prog having come to the scene from PT/TMV. All completely anecdotal from hanging around forums, going to gigs and chatting in hotel lobbies during prog festivals.
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  11. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sputnik View Post
    The last big show I was at was King Crimson last year. Most of the audience was basically my age or older. Were there some younger people? Sure. But it was overwhelmingly geezers. Ian Anderson a few years ago was the same way, and Emerson/Lake before that. If fans of these newer bands are flooding into older Prog, where are they at shows like these, not to mention the festivals? I just don't see it.

    I saw PFM last week-end, and I can safely say that there was no-one under 35 in the audience, but I'd even say 45 seemed to be the minimum age to get inside the premises... This goes for many prog gigs, whether 70's legends, 80's neo bands or resurgeance 90's & 00's artistes... Sure you have a bunch of early 30-sumthins in the audiences of the latter bands, but obviously not enough for a band to survive once we're going to the graveyard or interned in fourth-age asylums.

    And going to prog festivals (RIO, Lorelei, Prog-Resiste) it's 95% above 35 and averages around 50

    Quote Originally Posted by Sputnik View Post
    And I never said they weren't out there, in fact I specifically said that surely some are delving deeper. I just don't see it having a particularly big impact. It could well be that I'm not hanging at the right sites or going to the right shows, but I do peruse Prog Archives and am somewhat plugged in to what's going on. There are surely younger bands, but younger fans are a pretty rare commodity in my estimation. It's interesting to me that you say "I think that's part of the problem." This sort of implies that at some level we're in agreement about this.
    That's the sad part, IMHO.... Because I feel that most of these young bands (not talking about PT or TMV, here) are only - and involuntary, most likely - catering to much older audiences than the musicians in those bands... In some ways, they're just tapping the prog audience, but not able to create their own particular core audience (except for PT and TMV and these Post-rock bands)

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Man View Post
    You don't see the younger fans but you also probably haven't spent time on progarchives or taken polls on the ages of the members either like I have. I know what the f*** I'm talking about. You can't go by just who shows up at the concerts and festivals. That being said I recently saw a show where about 200 people in were in the audience and it was mostly younger folks(this was Haken, Thank you scientist(who played at Progday one year)and the Tea Club.
    I wouldn't call the membership of PA as representative of a prog crowd, even if it is substantially a younger crowd there than on PE.

    Something tells me that many of these younger prog fans are not consuming prog (as financially supporting bands by buying albums, merchandise or attending concerts) the same way we do.
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

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    I know this thread has probably run its course, but just in case someone is reading back through it down the road as they work on their thesis "Progressive Rock: The Third Wave"...

    Anyways, King Crimson's The Great Deceiver box set came up on my workout iPod yesterday and I wanted to be sure it was factored into the discussion. I can remember when it arrived in the early 90s (it was released in 1992) it touched off a huge surge of interest in mid 70s KC, and there was a wave of renewed love for that style of prog rock that seems to have lasted til today. That's part of the reason bands like Anekdoten were so successful right out of the gate, cuz they were heavily channeling that period. And it seemed like a lot of new stuff that came out after that was being held up to mid 70s KC as sort of a litmus test to determine whether it was cool or not. Suddenly everyone was adding "Starless" to their setlists and atonal crunch was turning up all over the place.

    I think some of this was people's sense that here was a style of prog that could be proudly held up against grunge. There was even a quote flying around at the time about how Kurt Cobain was influenced by the Red album. It just seemed to be in the right place at the right time and IMO was a big part of giving the 90s prog resurgence a kick into high gear.
    I'm holding out for the Wilson-mixed 5.1 super-duper walletbuster special anniversary extra adjectives edition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulrus View Post
    I know this thread has probably run its course, but just in case someone is reading back through it down the road as they work on their thesis "Progressive Rock: The Third Wave"...

    Anyways, King Crimson's The Great Deceiver box set came up on my workout iPod yesterday and I wanted to be sure it was factored into the discussion. I can remember when it arrived in the early 90s (it was released in 1992) it touched off a huge surge of interest in mid 70s KC, and there was a wave of renewed love for that style of prog rock that seems to have lasted til today. That's part of the reason bands like Anekdoten were so successful right out of the gate, cuz they were heavily channeling that period. And it seemed like a lot of new stuff that came out after that was being held up to mid 70s KC as sort of a litmus test to determine whether it was cool or not. Suddenly everyone was adding "Starless" to their setlists and atonal crunch was turning up all over the place.

    I think some of this was people's sense that here was a style of prog that could be proudly held up against grunge. There was even a quote flying around at the time about how Kurt Cobain was influenced by the Red album. It just seemed to be in the right place at the right time and IMO was a big part of giving the 90s prog resurgence a kick into high gear.
    I love Mr Fripp's vehicle called King Crimson so much that I'll travel to see them in Vienna in December this year, but to be honest, personaly I certainly wouldn't call it a resurrection of progressive rock every time when Mr Fripp has got something to record as King Crimson.
    Last edited by Svetonio; 09-29-2016 at 04:01 PM.

  14. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Svetonio View Post
    I love Mr Fripp's vehicle called King Crimson so much that I'll travel to see them in Vienna in December this year, but to be honest, personnaly I certainly wouldn't call it a resurection of progressive rock every time when Mr Fripp have something to record as King Crimson.
    That's what makes The Great Deceiver so interesting. It wasn't a new album, but instead a collection of 20 year old live recordings that nonetheless was able to leap over everything in between and sound astonishingly fresh and relevant.

    Coincidentally, the new music Fripp was creating at the time paved the way for things to come. 1993 also saw the release of The Bridge Between, the live document of his tour with The California Guitar Trio (also with that new guy, Trey Gunn) and then later that year came The First Day, his collaboration with David Sylvian. I remember at the time how much both projects tickled audience's hunger for all things Crim. I think between those and the success of TGD Fripp realized the time had come to resurrect the kCrimson beast.
    I'm holding out for the Wilson-mixed 5.1 super-duper walletbuster special anniversary extra adjectives edition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulrus View Post
    That's what makes The Great Deceiver so interesting. It wasn't a new album, but instead a collection of 20 year old live recordings that nonetheless was able to leap over everything in between and sound astonishingly fresh and relevant.

    Coincidentally, the new music Fripp was creating at the time paved the way for things to come. 1993 also saw the release of The Bridge Between, the live document of his tour with The California Guitar Trio (also with that new guy, Trey Gunn) and then later that year came The First Day, his collaboration with David Sylvian. I remember at the time how much both projects tickled audience's hunger for all things Crim. I think between those and the success of TGD Fripp realized the time had come to resurrect the kCrimson beast.
    There's no doubt that The Great Deceiver was a significant & beautifully designed compilation - there was also Frame by Frame: The Essential King Crimson released a year before - but wasn't that box-set too expensive that would have be a trigger for re-growing interest for the genre in the wider masses of the kids? I mean, those kids on a tight budget would have grab Red CD rather than expensive box-set(s), as their idol Kurt Cobain has cited Red as influential to him (btw, other album that he has cited - as an influential album to him - is Slade's Whatever Happened to Slade from 1977, a really great hard-rock album indeed).
    Last edited by Svetonio; 09-30-2016 at 02:10 AM.

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