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Thread: Steve Howe: How important was he to Yes?

  1. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by The Crimson King View Post
    That is an arrogant and condescending post, as well as misguided and misunderstanding of the nature of the music that Yes created, which is far greater than any of the individual creators. While they are healthy and capable of playing that great music together, they should. It would honor and help preserve the legacy of that music, and it would honor the fans who love the music, without whom these musicians have much less.

    The only things stopping that are their egos. All of the "practical problems", which are always about money and control, can be easily overcome.

    If you don't get that, you don't get that. I don't expect that you do, but I know that others do.





    you may be clueless about what makes a human happy and what makes an organization work (see Fripp, Robert)


    one could also argue that "they are healthy and capable of playing that great music together, they should. It would honor and help preserve the legacy of that music" is exactly what they are doing right now
    2trevorsforlife

  2. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by helix View Post
    you may be clueless about what makes a human happy and what makes an organization work (see Fripp, Robert)
    I'm not certain "see Fripp" is ever an appropriate comment for what makes an organisation work. I find it difficult to imagine that Bob Fripp would survive a month in a real job! That he may be a good exemplar in music only shows how fucked up the music business is.

    Henry
    Where Are They Now? Yes news: http://www.bondegezou.co.uk/wh_now.htm
    Blogdegezou, the accompanying blog: http://bondegezou.blogspot.com/

  3. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by bondegezou View Post
    I'm not certain "see Fripp" is ever an appropriate comment for what makes an organisation work. I find it difficult to imagine that Bob Fripp would survive a month in a real job! That he may be a good exemplar in music only shows how fucked up the music business is.

    Henry



    I can't see how you would willingly choose ignore how DGM is currently operating and serving it's principals and customers, the business and Crimson's current touring successes



    come on Henry. wtf


    maybe I should have qualified : (see Fripp, Robert 2019)
    2trevorsforlife

  4. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by helix View Post
    I can't see how you would willingly choose ignore how DGM is currently operating and serving it's principals and customers, the business and Crimson's current touring successes

    come on Henry. wtf

    maybe I should have qualified : (see Fripp, Robert 2019)
    Fripp is a very eccentric individual with unorthodox views and behaviour. He has been a successful band leader artistically, and sometimes commercially. Both of these things can be true.

    DGM is serving Fripp well. At some point, DGM tipped over from serving its customers well to squeezing preposterous amounts of money out of the fanbase before they die.

    I am glad Collins, Levin, Mastelotto, Harrison, Jakszyk, Rieflin and Stacey get to play great music to appreciative audiences. I wish they were in a context where they were getting to add to the canon of great music more.

    Henry
    Where Are They Now? Yes news: http://www.bondegezou.co.uk/wh_now.htm
    Blogdegezou, the accompanying blog: http://bondegezou.blogspot.com/

  5. #130
    Insect Overlord Progatron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Crimson King View Post
    it would honor the fans who love the music, without whom these musicians have much less.
    ...and there it is, right on cue. They should do what you want, because to you, the dollars you shelled out for past albums and concerts somehow entitle you to make demands on what they do in the present and future as well. How much more 'honor'ing do the fans need after 50 years anyway? If the music, as you claim, is 'far greater than any of the individual creators', why the hand wringing over which of those creators is standing on a stage with which? Personally, I don't go to see this band anymore, but it's no skin off my nose who is playing with who, and earning their living. I can go and put on Going For The One and thoroughly enjoy the music without worrying about legacies being 'preserved'. That's just a load of codswallop to me.

    I realize this will fall on deaf ears, as with the last subject I saw you bring up. I believe I mentioned pigeons and chessboards then, and that holds true now. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to tell some divorced and happily remarried couples that they should get back together. I mean, I went to their wedding, I bought them a toaster oven! It's sickening, the egos of those people to remain apart like that.
    Two boys have been found rubbing linseed oil into the school cormorant.

  6. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by bondegezou View Post
    Fripp is a very eccentric individual with unorthodox views and behaviour. He has been a successful band leader artistically, and sometimes commercially. Both of these things can be true.

    DGM is serving Fripp well. At some point, DGM tipped over from serving its customers well to squeezing preposterous amounts of money out of the fanbase before they die.

    I am glad Collins, Levin, Mastelotto, Harrison, Jakszyk, Rieflin and Stacey get to play great music to appreciative audiences. I wish they were in a context where they were getting to add to the canon of great music more.

    Henry



    you seem to be ignoring any amount of current interviews on these subjects. Anil just put up one with Jakko that explains the topic of "current material". this has been explained many times as it's been a cudgel from critics


    asfaras "squeezing preposterous amounts of money" . . . I mean, fucking please man. honor the aspects of commerce, the exchanges of infrastructure, warehousing, mastering, producing etc and how those exchanges work between a vendor and it's customer. do me a favor and dial down what you think these investments are to what the customer pays; it's been mentioned here that 'Heaven and Earth' has upwards of 4. DAYS of music. the box cost about $160 average. likewise the DGM subscriptions etc. tremendous value for music that offers variety within


    musicians play music and musicians deserve to get paid



    "squeezing" is an asshole comment. 'Progeny' my ass . . . . I'd support any and every YesO commerce with the same amount I do with Crim/DGM and the Grateful Dead Corporation, both orgs that show a great deal of integrity delivering their product


    back on subject, this is something YesO or Jon CANNOT seem to do. remind me why Jon's catalog is underserved and why he never finished fantasies like the Opio box etc . . . a lack of management and inwardly, focus. broadly, YesO seems to be tied to it's major label affiliation(s) and does not seem to mange it's archive the way say the Grateful Dead have done with their Rhino contract.

    please expound Henry
    2trevorsforlife

  7. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by helix View Post
    you seem to be ignoring any amount of current interviews on these subjects. Anil just put up one with Jakko that explains the topic of "current material". this has been explained many times as it's been a cudgel from critics
    I have been looking forward to reading Anil's interview, but have been saving it for the weekend. If Jakszyk et al. are happy with Crimson's approach to new music, I am glad for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by helix View Post
    asfaras "squeezing preposterous amounts of money" . . . I mean, fucking please man. honor the aspects of commerce, the exchanges of infrastructure, warehousing, mastering, producing etc and how those exchanges work between a vendor and it's customer. do me a favor and dial down what you think these investments are to what the customer pays; it's been mentioned here that 'Heaven and Earth' has upwards of 4. DAYS of music. the box cost about $160 average. likewise the DGM subscriptions etc. tremendous value for music that offers variety within

    musicians play music and musicians deserve to get paid

    "squeezing" is an asshole comment.
    I apologise for my exaggerated rhetoric. "Value" is a difficult concept. (I've just been reading Mariana Mazzucato's "The Value of Everything": available free online and recommended.) Musicians deserve to get paid. Record labels choose what to release, in what formats, when. There are many DGM/Crimson releases that are very good value for money.

    If you bought all the King Crimson product available in a year, how much money would you have to spend? It's quite a big number, I think. That worries me. DGM's business strategy is primarily to sell more to existing fans; this differs from what a young band does, which used to be to sell the same to more people. I worry that the amount spent on deluxe re-releases and tour boxes and live sets of the much-loved, well-known back catalogue (of King Crimson or any other band) is money not spent on new music. I think it's bad for the genre if someone's buying the 2019 Crimson Tour Box rather than, say, David Cross & David Jackson's Another Day. (You can substitute those two with Yes's 50 Live and the Steve Howe Trio's New Frontier.) Do you think it's good for the genre?

    Quote Originally Posted by helix View Post
    'Progeny' my ass . . . . I'd support any and every YesO commerce with the same amount I do with Crim/DGM and the Grateful Dead Corporation, both orgs that show a great deal of integrity delivering their product

    back on subject, this is something YesO or Jon CANNOT seem to do. remind me why Jon's catalog is underserved and why he never finished fantasies like the Opio box etc . . . a lack of management and inwardly, focus. broadly, YesO seems to be tied to it's major label affiliation(s) and does not seem to mange it's archive the way say the Grateful Dead have done with their Rhino contract.

    please expound Henry
    There are multiple questions there with different answers.

    Jon Anderson is a very eccentric individual with unorthodox views and behaviour. He has been a successful band leader artistically, and sometimes commercially. Both of these things can be true.

    These days, Anderson appears to struggle to find a business model that works for him, certainly compared to Fripp. We've had crowdfunding for Anderson Ponty; a regular album release for Anderson/Stolt; a dedicated-website-only, expensive release for 1000 Hands; and then he sticks just short of an hour of new music online completely for free. As you say, there's also numerous unfinished projects. However, I don't understand what point you're making with this comparison between Fripp and Anderson...?

    Fripp has successfully wrested back control of his back catalogue, a sound business move. Yes have control of their recent catalogue, but the back catalogue (up to Big Generator) is all controlled by Atlantic, but I'm glad that they appear to have good relationships with Rhino (representing Warner, who own the Atlantic catalogue), as seen by Rhino releasing 50 Live and rumours they are to release a new studio album in 2020. What Yes appear to lack is the same interest in their back catalogue, or the same understanding of their fans' interest in it. However, I know management are interested and I look forward to the forthcoming early years box.

    Again, I am unclear what point you are making? Are you basically saying that Fripp has managed Crimson's career better than Yes have managed theirs... ergo, Fripp is a genius...? If so, there are two obvious replies. (a) Saying someone has managed their career better than Yes seems like damning with faint praise. (b) Whatever the obvious hiccups in Yes's career, they've sold shit loads more than Crimson, so if you want to set up a competition from a commercial point of view, arguably they've done better.

    Henry
    Where Are They Now? Yes news: http://www.bondegezou.co.uk/wh_now.htm
    Blogdegezou, the accompanying blog: http://bondegezou.blogspot.com/

  8. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by bondegezou View Post

    Again, I am unclear what point you are making? Are you basically saying that Fripp has managed Crimson's career better than Yes have managed theirs... ergo, Fripp is a genius...? If so, there are two obvious replies. (a) Saying someone has managed their career better than Yes seems like damning with faint praise. (b) Whatever the obvious hiccups in Yes's career, they've sold shit loads more than Crimson, so if you want to set up a competition from a commercial point of view, arguably they've done better.

    Henry


    thanks for the reply Henry. again, your closeness to the Yes machine is valuable and appreciated


    my 'Fripp = Happy' post was made within the context of the thread and comments regarding 2019 current line-ups that people comment and fantasize about. that his current modes of assessing both the Crim live performance along with the huge work that DGM has done in presenting the studio and live catalog. having just about every King Crimson live show in existence available for the fan is a huge thing. this has made him "happy"

    (Howe also seems happier now as well, with no ergh . . . pointless distractions, even weathering Chris' loss and Alan's health, he would rather keep this ship)





    both of these heritage acts are now post-industry. I am not talking about their major label careers. in this respect DGM wipes the fucking floor of any Kickstarter, 1000 Hands CDR snafu or a second hand record your vocals from afar "what's his name again' man production. Jon's current career remains a flitting about from expedient to expedient product. all of this in a’la carte moving from one project to another, all with different product management. for someone of his caliber, it’s not very organized is it? I'd also say that DGM probably offers a better check to it's licensed musicians!!


    kudos for the acts that have been able to monetize their live archives. look, I buy bootleg CDs of this stuff, I download this stuff (Yes fans NEED go to Remy's site. he has basically everything available: http://www.yessongs.nl ), I stream youtube shows at work etc. anything produced and mastered properly are superior to those other choices. DGM is the gold standard





    the concept of buying power of past catalog versus a new artist seems a bit much. anyone who buys a thing like the Starless box is likely an unrepentant music buyer no matter what else they spend there money on lol. I mean I buy all of the NYA releases, bought the new Stereolab duophonic expanded editions but still buy new acts (Russian Circles, Pelican, Messthetics, spoon, Wilco, Versus and Sleater Kinney all coming soon). I can't comment on current "prog" acts as I generally steer way from them




    anyways, seeing both Jon and King Crimson in the next month and months of 2019 (not 1974) and I am certainly grateful for this reality
    2trevorsforlife

  9. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by helix View Post
    both of these heritage acts are now post-industry. I am not talking about their major label careers. in this respect DGM wipes the fucking floor of any Kickstarter, 1000 Hands CDR snafu or a second hand record your vocals from afar "what's his name again' man production. Jon's current career remains a flitting about from expedient to expedient product. all of this in a’la carte moving from one project to another, all with different product management. for someone of his caliber, it’s not very organized is it? I'd also say that DGM probably offers a better check to it's licensed musicians!!
    Yes, agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by helix View Post
    the concept of buying power of past catalog versus a new artist seems a bit much. anyone who buys a thing like the Starless box is likely an unrepentant music buyer no matter what else they spend there money on lol. I mean I buy all of the NYA releases, bought the new Stereolab duophonic expanded editions but still buy new acts (Russian Circles, Pelican, Messthetics, spoon, Wilco, Versus and Sleater Kinney all coming soon). I can't comment on current "prog" acts as I generally steer way from them
    You'll have to tell me more about those new acts some time: I've not even heard of half of them. However, I fear many, maybe most, are not like you. I think those who buy the Crimson box sets don't buy much new music and, possibly, are buying even less because of the money and time they're investing in another 18-disc box. I've got one of those Crimson mega-sets, and the big UK box, the medium-sized Bruford box, etc.: I'm not saying they are bad things to exist. I do think they cater for a particular audience, and I do think the nostalgia market can be non-beneficial to the genre as a whole.

    I had a look at the current UK top 30 prog chart, as published monthly in Prog. Best I can tell, there are 10 albums in that chart that are re-releases of some sort. Is that a healthy sign? (Although, that said, I was surprised it was as low as 10! Maybe things aren't as bad as I fear.)

    Henry
    Where Are They Now? Yes news: http://www.bondegezou.co.uk/wh_now.htm
    Blogdegezou, the accompanying blog: http://bondegezou.blogspot.com/

  10. #135
    Steve has long expressed at least some disinterest in the Yes archives. He's made tapes available to archival projects like The Word Is Live, from what I've read, but he's never had the interest in spearheading this sort of thing the way Fripp does.

    In the end, Fripp owns everything Crim-related and can do what he wants. Even if Anderson and Howe were working together and agreed on everything, the rights to Yes archival material are complex and not entirely in their hands.

    On the other hand, the Rhino releases of the Yes catalog had tons of demos and unreleased tracks. Most of which were very rough and not something you'd listen to repeatedly. Anything left unheard in random Atlantic tape boxes is unlikely to be better than the horrible '79 demos or such.

    As a live band, Yes doesn't vary as much from night to night as Crimson does. This has certainly been true since the late '70s. How many people would really be interested in a "The Ladder Box Set" containing a remaster and 16 discs of live performances from that tour? Most of it would be redundant (though The Ladder could certainly use a non-brickwalled remaster!).

  11. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by profusion View Post
    On the other hand, the Rhino releases of the Yes catalog had tons of demos and unreleased tracks. Most of which were very rough and not something you'd listen to repeatedly. Anything left unheard in random Atlantic tape boxes is unlikely to be better than the horrible '79 demos or such.
    While agreeing with much of what you said, I question this. There are tapes that weren't located at the time of the Rhino expanded series, or which had more complicated rights issues. There are hints that the vaults still contain some gems, like a good recording of the early band doing "Eleanor Rigby".

    Henry
    Where Are They Now? Yes news: http://www.bondegezou.co.uk/wh_now.htm
    Blogdegezou, the accompanying blog: http://bondegezou.blogspot.com/

  12. #137
    To return the original question, my favourite Yes albums are Close To The edge and 90125 so to me, Steve Howe has 50% importance.

  13. #138
    Studmuffin Scott Bails's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Crimson King View Post
    That is an arrogant and condescending post, as well as misguided and misunderstanding of the nature of the music that Yes created, which is far greater than any of the individual creators. While they are healthy and capable of playing that great music together, they should. It would honor and help preserve the legacy of that music, and it would honor the fans who love the music, without whom these musicians have much less.

    The only things stopping that are their egos. All of the "practical problems", which are always about money and control, can be easily overcome.

    If you don't get that, you don't get that. I don't expect that you do, but I know that others do.
    What an absolutely ridiculous post.
    Music isn't about chops, or even about talent - it's about sound and the way that sound communicates to people. Mike Keneally

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