SHAMAL

[Svetonio]

I could not agree more. This is Gong at their finest moment. If it is transitional, then it's where they transitioned to their peak and then went back down the mountain on a different path. People today couldn't copy and paste their way into something like this. It's a mind blower.

GonG were so much flexible ensemble that each album can be casually called "transitional", but it's now exclusively used as a negative adjective to Shamal only. That's sad.

[Kcrimso]

What is this "GonG" spelling? Was that the way Gong was spelled before internet was invented and ruined everything?

[Scrotum Scissor]

What is this "GonG" spelling?

I've personally somehow come to the conclusion that it's due to how Allen usually spelled out the bandname, accentuating that ending 'G'.

[NogbadTheBad]

GonG were so much flexible ensemble that each album can be casually called "transitional", but it's now exclusively used as a negative adjective to Shamal only. That's sad.

There are multiple posts in this thread alone that clearly call out that the transitional term is not being negatively so it's clearly not being used exclusively negatively here. I'm sad that this misperception makes you sad.

[Svetonio]

(missing link)






p.s. just a nice cracker for those who are claiming that You is sadly "too much different in style" than Shamal that THE album have to be called "transitional album" - maybe to hear again Shamal the title track could be just helpful too :



Well, it shows well similarities within both Space Rock on one hand and Jazz Rock on the other, with the saxophone and female vocals on both of those two great GonG's tracks.

[Zeuhlmate]

Svetonio - music is not science.

You will have a hard time and endless pointless dicussions, if you dont accept that we are not all listening the same way, and we dont have the same perception or understanding of what we are listening to.

And since the most music we listen to here have several layers, and your mood is not always the same, you have probably also experienced that music doesnt always sound the same.
Which is a good thing.

Its off course interesting to know what you other guys think and what you recommend. That's why I'm here.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/transitional - cant see how 'transitional' per se is a negative description.

[Svetonio]

Svetonio - music is not science. (...)

Of course not, but it's not excuse for silly claims like this:

Good tracks - but no coherence - its not really an 'album'

http://www.progressiveears.org/forum...ghlight=shamal

[Zeuhlmate]

Its not a claim. Its my perception.
To me it sounds a bit like two bands taking shifts.
I'm sure we can discuss the word 'album' for a long time. Just a package for sale, a casual succession of tracks, or something coherent.

[Gizmotron]

I have never understood why so many people criticize an album for having too much diversity or not enough diversity.
As far as I can tell, there are not any laws covering what can or cannot be included on an album.

[Kcrimso]

I have never understood why so many people criticize an album for having too much diversity or not enough diversity.
As far as I can tell, there are not any laws covering what can or cannot be included on an album.

Critique is not about law. It is about subjective opinions mostly.

[Gizmotron]

Critique is not about law. It is about subjective opinions mostly.

Perhaps I am being too subtle. I am of course not being literal about "laws."

Let's try this again: I have never understood why so many people--especially here on PE--insist on forcing their subjective, negative opinions on other people. It is not enough for them to dislike something. They seem unhappy unless they can force their opinions on everyone else and convince people to share their dislike. When they run out of legitimate criticism to rationalize their opinions, they reach for anything including silly things like too much diversity or too little diversity, meaningless terms like "transitional", and other trivial excuses.

Disliking something is just fine. I get it. We all have choices. We all have the right to state our dislikes and a forum like PE is the perfect place for active, respectful, meaningful dialogue. Some people weave truly interesting details into their negative review. For those of us that are open-minded, a well-written negative review can be a catalyst for seeing things in a new way. But unfortunately, the vast majority of people here that dislike something do not include any informative or thought-provoking substance.

[Facelift]

Perhaps I am being too subtle. I am of course not being literal about "laws."

Let's try this again: I have never understood why so many people--especially here on PE--insist on forcing their subjective, negative opinions on other people. It is not enough for them to dislike something. They seem unhappy unless they can force their opinions on everyone else and convince people to share their dislike. When they run out of legitimate criticism to rationalize their opinions, they reach for anything including silly things like too much diversity or too little diversity, meaningless terms like "transitional", and other trivial excuses.

Disliking something is just fine. I get it. We all have choices. We all have the right to state our dislikes and a forum like PE is the perfect place for active, respectful, meaningful dialogue. Some people weave truly interesting details into their negative review. For those of us that are open-minded, a well-written negative review can be a catalyst for seeing things in a new way. But unfortunately, the vast majority of people here that dislike something do not include any informative or thought-provoking substance.

But nobody on this thread has used the fact that Shamal is a transitional album to support an opinion that the album is bad. A person who appeared to not understand the meaning of the word "transitional" was mildly shamed on this point, but that was ultimately for the greater good because it prevents similar misunderstandings from arising in the future.

[100423]

...that was ultimately for the greater good because it prevents similar misunderstandings from arising in the future.

I wouldn't count on that.

[Scrotum Scissor]

meaningless terms like "transitional", and other trivial excuses.

As far as I can see, no one (except for the one who doesn't seem to quite understand the actual meaning of the term) has equalled "transitional" with anything negative. This has been reassessed in numerous posts in this very thread already. Shamal was a transitional record AND among the five best Gong albums altogether - in my subjective opinion.

[Pr33t]

It's certainly transitional.

[yoyiceu]

I do like Shamal and its possible its the Gong album I've listened to the most -it's very exotic and flows easily- although I don't have any problems with calling it transitional. But perhaps it would help if someone could give examples of other 'transitional' albums by well known groups, that not necesarlly imply "heading in a new direction, but not fully developed yet", an expression that, rightly or wrongly, I too tend to equate with 'transitional', and may be the reason why some here think that transitional is a negative term.
For example, were the Stones' 'Between the Buttons' or Satanic Majesties' "transitional albums in any sense? Genesis' 'Duke' (transitioning from prog to pop, but still with one feet in each genre)? The Doors' 'Soft Parade'?
Of course, sometimes albums that break substantially with a previous style also can indicate a future direction that is not followed.

[Facelift]

I do like Shamal and its possible its the Gong album I've listened to the most -it's very exotic and flows easily- although I don't have any problems with calling it transitional. But perhaps it would help if someone could give examples of other 'transitional' albums by well known groups, that not necesarlly imply "heading in a new direction, but not fully developed yet", an expression that, rightly or wrongly, I too tend to equate with 'transitional', and may be the reason why some here think that transitional is a negative term.
For example, were the Stones' 'Between the Buttons' or Satanic Majesties' "transitional albums in any sense? Genesis' 'Duke' (transitioning from prog to pop, but still with one feet in each genre)? The Doors' 'Soft Parade'?
Of course, sometimes albums that break substantially with a previous style also can indicate a future direction that is not followed.

I think that a natural consequence of something being "transitional" is that it's not fully developed, but I don't think that this absolutely needs be the case.

Other examples I can think of off the top of my head, from major bands that most will know:

Pink Floyd - Meddle
Genesis - And Then There Were Three
Rush - Presto and Roll the Bones
Porcupine Tree - Signify
Gentle Giant - The Missing Piece
Miles Davis - Filles Des Kilimanjaro

many others, too.

[yoyiceu]

[QUOTE=Facelift;605521]I think that a natural consequence of something being "transitional" is that it's not fully developed, but I don't think that this absolutely needs be the case.

I agree. Of course, its probably only years later that one can ascertain if a 'transitional' stage was fully developed afterwards or not. For example, would you say Soft Machine Vol. 2 was a transitional album?
One possible rule for a transitional album is that the band has recently undergone personnel changes. In Pink Floyd's case, I would certainly nominate Ummaguma, where the band pays a debt to its past with the live album and is fairly uncertain where to go next in the studio one. Meddle seems fairly developed to me.

[Facelift]

I think that a natural consequence of something being "transitional" is that it's not fully developed, but I don't think that this absolutely needs be the case.

I agree. Of course, its probably only years later that one can ascertain if a 'transitional' stage was fully developed afterwards or not. For example, would you say Soft Machine Vol. 2 was a transitional album?
One possible rule for a transitional album is that the band has recently undergone personnel changes. In Pink Floyd's case, I would certainly nominate Ummaguma, where the band pays a debt to its past with the live album and is fairly uncertain where to go next in the studio one. Meddle seems fairly developed to me.

I do not think that personnel changes are a rule, it's about musical style. As with something not being fully developed, I think that personnel changes might naturally be the causes of changes in sound, but they don't need to be.

[Mr.Krautman]

Wow, all this discussion is getting very boring and unpleasant. I liked Shamal the first time when I bought it in 1975 and still enjoy it today. I never asked myself if it was a transitional album or not, or whatever that term means. It's a good solid record and amongst Gong's top five best albums, period. After that they drifted to a more conventional jazz-rock/fusion style (The Moerlen Years) and some of the magic was gone... then with their last album (the excellent I See You) they were back to their roots. (is it a backwards transition?) . During all their career the band was constantly changing and evolving, and this is a main characteristic of the Gong style.

[chalkpie]

I have never understood why so many people criticize an album for having too much diversity or not enough diversity.
As far as I can tell, there are not any laws covering what can or cannot be included on an album.

That's a great fuckin' quote.

[Svetonio]

(...) When they run out of legitimate criticism to rationalize their opinions, they reach for anything including silly things like too much diversity or too little diversity, meaningless terms like "transitional", and other trivial excuses.
Disliking something is just fine. I get it. We all have choices. We all have the right to state our dislikes and a forum like PE is the perfect place for active, respectful, meaningful dialogue. (...)

I couldn't say it any better myself.

[Kcrimso]

So it is better to just say "I dislike album x" than to justify it for example by saying that it feels too diverse (=incoherent)? I think that "too diverse" is perfectly legitimate critique. I feel that way about many Steve Hackett albums for example.

Btw. I still love Shamal which is transitional album!

[flytomars]

I couldn't say it any better myself.

Not even in the 10 times you said it in this thread alone?
Wonder what that says about your writing abilities