Sober Townshend Not Impressed By Barrett

[moecurlythanu]

With that being said, I have no doubt that the Who in their prime were a far better live experience than Barrett-era Floyd. Live at Leeds pretty much proves that point, I think.

Wow. If I had a choice between seeing The Who in their prime, or Swinging London-era Pink Floyd, I'd pick The Floyd, and it wouldn't be close.

[The Dark Elf]

I would have to agree with the consensus here that Townshend, although a brilliant songwriter and composer in his prime (up to but not much beyond Quadrophenia), was simply not what I'd consider a great "lead guitarist". There are simply not that many sustained leads in The Who corpus, but there are tons of killer riffs and incidental fill one would expect from a great rhythm guitarist, much like Keith Richards was.

[progeezer]

A songwriter first & foremost, Townshend's "misfortune" was to have come up at the time of Beck/Clapton/Hendrix et al, the era of virtuosity, but he was fundamentally a rhythm player charged with filling up the sonic space and maintaining the time in a band with a "lead" drummer who rarely played "in the pocket;" playing leads was an extravagance.

The defense rests. Ladies & gentlemen of the jury, the facts don't lie.

[Svetonio]

Well, Townsend and the Townsend/Barrett haters just have it wrong. Barrett was an explorer of textural guitar and the guy invented glissando guitar. (See Daevid Allen, Steve Hillage, David Gilmour, Robert Rich etc.) You didn't need acid to appreciate him. His guitar playing was acid. (And per an earlier poster, that must have been weak acid to wear off after four miles.) Pete Townsend was a master of the rhythm guitar solo as well as more conventional leads. Just listen to "I Can See for Miles." He did more with less, but he could just do more as well. I've never heard his guitar prowess questioned anywhere but here. Rolling Stone did have him at #10 of the 100 Greatest Guitarists. And from Andy Summers : "He more or less invented the power chord." A few could make that claim, but Townsend is definitely among them.

Also, Pete Townshend is one of THE guitarists who invented controlled feedback.

(...) To your knowledge were you the first to use controlled feedback?
PT: To tell the truth, Dave Davies, Jeff (Beck) and me have got a tacit agreement that we will all squabble ‘til the day we die that we invented it. I think possibly the truth is that it was happening in a lot of places at once. As the level went up, as people started to use bigger amps, and we were all still using semi-acoustic instruments, it started to happen quite naturally. I think the development of it was the word was around the street and then Lennon used it at the beginning of that record I Feel Fine and then it became quite common and a lot of people started to use it. (...)

http://www.thewho.org/pete.htm

[Wounded Land]

Wow. If I had a choice between seeing The Who in their prime, or Swinging London-era Pink Floyd, I'd pick The Floyd, and it wouldn't be close.

Different strokes, and all that. For me, it's not even a question.

Pete Townsend is a fantastic rock guitarist. Again: Live at Leeds. I don't rate Barrett that highly, although he did write an album's worth of pretty nifty songs. I don't think I would have put it exactly that way that Townsend did, but I get his point. I guess I just don't understand what's so controversial about saying that a band known for having audiences watching them while on drugs would not have quite the same impact without the presence of the drugs. Again, maybe he could have gotten his point across in a less inflammatory way...

Not to stir the pot unnecessarily, but I think you could make the same case for the Grateful Dead. Great band, but my guess is that a significant portion of the attention that they got for their live performances wouldn't be there if people were sober. (Keep in mind that I have seventeen GD albums in my collection...I'm not a fanatic, but I like them more than most people do, and I am not saying that you can only like the Dead if you are listening to them high.)

[Rufus]

Interesting coming from Townshend who wasn't all that impressive himself. I get that both of them were good song writers, but neither was brimming over with actual musical talent.

Your having a laugh!

[Zeuhlmate]

Live at Leeds is imo more enjoyable than anything with PF (I'm sure most here disagrees).
Townsend is a fantastic rythmguitarist, and intrumentwise The Who: Live at Leeds is just a trio where the rythm guitarist really fills out all the harmonies, leeds the band, keeps the rythm steady (while Moon and the Ox are sailing up & down). He is clumsy as a fingerstyle soloist, but he doesnt try harder than its required and his 4 notes solos are in place. On this album I never needed more.

Leslie West is playing on a few tracks on Whos Next (bonus tracks) and imo it doesnt make any difference.

[davis]

But it's true, Syd was a better songwriter than a guitarist... or singer.

his technical virtuosity is irrelevant. His feel is all that matters. and his singing was fine. if you want better singing, listen to Queen.

[davis]

Live at Leeds is imo more enjoyable than anything with PF (I'm sure most here disagrees).
Townsend is a fantastic rythmguitarist, and intrumentwise The Who: Live at Leeds is just a trio where the rythm guitarist really fills out all the harmonies, leeds the band, keeps the rythm steady (while Moon and the Ox are sailing up & down). His is clumsy as a fingerstyle soloist, but he doesnt try harder than its required and his 4 notes solos are in place. On this album I never needed more.

Leslie West is playing on a few tracks on Whos Next (bonus tracks) and imo it doesnt make any difference.

West admits to being a limited player. he tried(s) to do very well what he did/does.

[infandous]

Yeah, I think both of them were great in their own way. Barrett, sadly, never got past the formative stages as a guitarist and musician due to his mental issues (whether LSD induced or not). I think what he DID do was evidence of a person that could have easily gone on to greatness. His song writing was far less formulaic and pedestrian than Roger Waters, that's for sure (and I say that as a fan of ALL Pink Floyd......Waters solo, or any of them solo for that matter, not so much).

I'm not a big Who fan, but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate Townsend's writing and guitar playing skills. I don't think he was ever a "lead" player, but man could he play rhythm guitar and write some incredible rhythm guitar parts. I remember seeing him do a solo acoustic version of Pinball Wizard and you'd have to be blind and deaf not to be impressed by it (and like I said, I've never really been a fan of the Who....but I can appreciate talent and craft when I hear it / see it).

As others have mentioned, I think he was just pissed that the acid didn't work and that colored his judgement of the performance.

[Jerjo]

I think Syd was a great innovator of psychedelic textures and it would have been interesting to see what he would have come up with if he had hung on to his marbles. But we'll never know. i play Piper now and then but for me it'll never be the pinnacle some think it is. Everyone's mileage varies. Including, obviously, Pete Townsend. Though seriously Pete, considering that you spent most of your most prolific years in one altered state or another, it does come off as a tad judgmental.

[wideopenears]

It must not have been very good acid if it wore off after only a 4 mile walk.

Yes, or that was the slowest four mile walk ever attempted. If it were me, I'd be feeling the peak coming on right about when I got there, I think......LOL.

[Zeuhlmate]

West admits to being a limited player. he tried(s) to do very well what he did/does.

West is a great player !
I am crazy about the first 3 (or 4 depending on how you count) albums by Mountain !
He was a better lead player than Townsend.

[Trane]

What incredibly impressive videos! Really drives home the point!

Got any more?

Of Svet's stupid and mean point to prove himself right on another thread? Just ask him .. he should be happy to indulge

If the agenda here is to show that this in any way proves that the Doors were better than psych Floyd "by a nautical mile"

Biiiingooooo!!

Indeed. Static pentatonic cliches and doing overdriven windmills and splits while playing cowboy chords are the best !

Hey, Townsend was/is an exciting rock guitarist... better than most of the shredding wankers of the 80's & 90's

I don't rate Townshend as a lead player either...but when you can write songs like that, who cares.

Well there was a lead drummer and a lead basist and a lead vocalist in the band... and he's still a good (but not great) lead guitarist

A songwriter first & foremost, Townshend's "misfortune" was to have come up at the time of Beck/Clapton/Hendrix et al, the era of virtuosity, but he was fundamentally a rhythm player charged with filling up the sonic space and maintaining the time in a band with a "lead" drummer who rarely played "in the pocket;" playing leads was an extravagance.

I still think Citystart is under-rated as a guitarist in general

[jlneudorf]

Well I just saw The Who live and Pete was damn impressive and he provided some excelled solos as well as his patented rhythmic play. Great show.

[jlneudorf]

Don't quite get all the bashing here but it's very typical.

[miamiscot]

Perhaps if Syd had been sober, he might have been a bit more impressive. I for one have never been a fan of Barrett. Compared to the rest of Pink Floyd, he was the weakest link as a player. He may have helped them get started with his songwriting, but his songwriting doesn't even compare to Roger's later work.

As per the comment about Townshend, I would suggest Who's Next, Quadrophenia, and Tommy as three of the most brilliant albums in Rock history.

+1

[Svetonio]

Considering what we got from a sober Townshend was The Endless Wire I don't put much stock in his opinion.

Pete Townshend is clear since 1981. So his ultimate Art Rock masterpiece All The Best Cowboys Have Chinese Eyes (1982) was recorded when he was already clear. Endless Wire, released in 2006, although it's more "The Two" than The Who, proved once again his amazing talent for songwriting.

[jamesmanzi]

Holy crap. First time I've heard this. The Who wrote a song about television's greatest theme song. Wow. (They may have been referring to something else Post wrote. But this is his crowning achievement.)

[Svetonio]

Holy crap. First time I've heard this. The Who wrote a song about television's greatest theme song. Wow. (They may have been referring to something else Post wrote. But this is his crowning achievement.)

The intro of Rockford Files Theme is used as a jingle of a Belgrade's "cult" radio show called Hit 202 which is all dedicated to rock music; the radio show lasts an hour and still going every evening since 1979

[Onomatopoeic]

Interesting coming from Townshend who wasn't all that impressive himself. I get that both of them were good song writers, but neither was brimming over with actual musical talent.

Townshend can barely play geetar. He's much much better at playing squeezebox.

[GuitarGeek]

Interesting coming from Townshend who wasn't all that impressive himself. I get that both of them were good song writers, but neither was brimming over with actual musical talent.

I actually always thought Townshend was an awesome guitarist. In the first place, he's one of the best "rhythm" guitarists, if you want to use that phrase, in rock music. Period. That might not seem like a very important skill in the realm of "prog", but trust me, in rock n roll, if you're the only guitarist in your band, it's essential.

He was also one of the first guys to really make the acoustic guitar rock as mightily as an electric. Things like Substitute, Imagine A Man, and the Who Are You solo demonstrate he didn't necessarily need a Gibson (or a Gretsch, or Rickenbacker or a Schecter) and a Hi-Watt stack to get his point across.

Secondly, I think he's really underrated as a "lead" guitarist, as well. He has this weird feral vibe to his playing. It's very unrefined, which I think The Who's music quite awesomely. I'm fond of quoting the I Can See For Miles solo (which largely consists of a single tremolo picked note, backed up by a couple of quick trills in the last bar) is one of my favorites, simply because it's the antithesis of "virtuoso" playing, and it just absolutely works.

Other great Townshend moments include Slip Kid (check out the volume swells during the breakdown on that song), Eminence Front (great solo, and an awesome two note riff), the power chords fading into feedback (complete with pickup switch telegraph effects, a good three decades before Tom Morello!) on Anyway Anywhere Anyhow, and the backwards guitar licks on Armenia City In The Sky.

And he's also been responsible for some of the most awesome intros in the history of the genre, from Substitute to Pinball Wizard to Won't Get Fooled Again to In A Hand Or A Face.

So don't tell me he had "no musical ability".

[GuitarGeek]

A songwriter first & foremost, Townshend's "misfortune" was to have come up at the time of Beck/Clapton/Hendrix et al, the era of virtuosity, but he was fundamentally a rhythm player charged with filling up the sonic space and maintaining the time in a band with a "lead" drummer who rarely played "in the pocket;" playing leads was an extravagance.

Not just the "lead drummer" but "lead bassist", too. I remember Entwistle admitting once he actually chose the wrong instrument, because his earlier musical experience as a trumpet and horn player had gotten him "used to being the center of attention". And really, what he wanted to do was play like Duane Eddy anyway.

If I remember correctly, in the original Detours lineup, Townshend actually played acoustic rhythm guitar, while Daltrey played electric lead. So yeah, originally Townshend was in the band for his rhythm guitar chops, and it was only when Daltrey took over lead vocals (after Colin Dawson quit) and put away his guitar that Townshend was sort of nudged into the lead guitar role.

[Svetonio]

(...) the backwards guitar licks on Armenia City In The Sky.

Or his backwards guitar licks at Entwislte's The Ox the instrumenal track from My Generation the debut album (1965)

He was also one of the first guys to really make the acoustic guitar rock as mightily as an electric. Things like Substitute, Imagine A Man, and the Who Are You solo demonstrate he didn't necessarily need a Gibson (or a Gretsch, or Rickenbacker or a Schecter) and a Hi-Watt stack to get his point across.

Oh don't forget this one

And he's also been responsible for some of the most awesome intros in the history of the genre, from Substitute to Pinball Wizard to Won't Get Fooled Again to In A Hand Or A Face.

Don't forget the best of the best riffs for starting a Rock concert

[chescorph]

Pete Townshend is fantastic. Hearing the demos he has made it is amazing how close Moon plays to what Pete lays down.
The man is a genius, with more emotion than you could ask for. His run from about '68 to '74 is just stupendous.