Cool. I rarely see anyone do it, and certainly not with that kind of precision. But with his fourth fingertip missing (a far more common finger used by rock players for bends), he surely developed that technique out of necessity.Originally Posted by Plasmatopia
Incidentally, he's not down-tuned in that video.
Not a fan. But I’d rather hear him play guitar than Ozzy “sing.” Ick.
Confirmed Bachelors: the dramedy hit of 1883...
Somebody posted this on another site and I remembered we had this thread going. This is from Wednesday; the opening night of the final stretch in the US. To me, I don't know ... but I'd say he's not only as good as ever but has continued to develop as a player when a lot of his peers are perhaps "mailing it in" a bit. For anyone who has been in this thread, this is just a must watch five minutes, IMO.
And his tone here is to drool for ...
Just saw BS earlier tonight. NObody on the planet has a dirtier grittier guitar tone period. Also, my nickname for him is the riffmaster general. Not only is nobody heavier(or dirtier to use a somewhat dated term) but nobody can come up with the great riffs he does.
The thing that always impressed me about Iommi was that any of his overdubbed leads on his albums played over his rhythm guitar on record, still sounded great live with his rhythm guitar parts missing, as if there was no hole in the music. I know that Geezer and Ward (or his replacements) were an awesome rhythm section that could pick up the slack, but still, that's an awesome feat from a guitarist that usually switched back and forth from rhythm to leads.
To be or not to be? That is the point. - Harry Nilsson.
Well, Jeff, personally I think you have quite a bit of "Fan Bias" --- He sounds good, band sounds great, he is a good guitarist, but I think youre biasing him into being something more......YMMV, of course
I'll see for myself tommorrow night (Sunday), btw
^IMO, over the past few decades, many pretenders have attempted to grasp the heavy rock throne – but no one has come close to Black Sabbath, the true progenitors of the Heavy Rock, and as I said previously: BS savagely freakin' unique dark sound and atmosphere owes much to the visionary Tony Iommi. I believe that today's guitarists still try hard to better it.
Last edited by Rick Robson; 08-20-2016 at 03:41 PM. Reason: savagely freakin' (not freakin' savagely)
"Beethoven can write music, thank God, but he can do nothing else on earth. ". Ludwig van Beethoven
Also something pretty worth mentioning here is a really interesting excerpt of an interview that I've recently come across, which just confirms what some months ago I was glad to acknowledge right here on PE's, reading a post by JeffCarney on a thread about Led Zeppelin, iirc.
Rock Cellar Magazine:
" You’re recognized as the father of heavy metal. What went into the creation of that sound? "
Tony Iommi:
" I love Classical Music and that’s had a big influence on me. When you play a classical record I like the tension in that kind of music. That’s what I wanted to introduce into what we were playing. I also like the drama and dynamics in classical music. That’s what I wanted to do with my riffs. I wanted to create some tension and drama. I wanted to create that same thing that you get like watching a horror film or listening to a real heavy classical album. I wanted to do that with rock. "
Last edited by Rick Robson; 08-20-2016 at 03:44 PM. Reason: Ortographic correction: 'acknowledge'
"Beethoven can write music, thank God, but he can do nothing else on earth. ". Ludwig van Beethoven
Nah. I'm a "fan" of countless musicians and it serves no purpose to do as you say. Iommi gets my praise because he's that great.Well, Jeff, personally I think you have quite a bit of "Fan Bias" --- He sounds good, band sounds great, he is a good guitarist, but I think youre biasing him into being something more......YMMV, of course
I'll see for myself tommorrow night (Sunday), btw
That stuff he's doing in that video is some of the most brilliant lead work I've ever seen. I could wax on about why, but it's pointless to "rank" guitarists. We all have people that impress us more than others but what matters most is who moves us. Your earlier comment that Iommi somehow took a nosedive around the players in the 80s only tells me that we simply hear the art of the guitar in quite a different fashion.
There is "bias," it's just that it's on your end, IMO.
Thanks for this video man, and thanks for your interesting contributions too.
"Beethoven can write music, thank God, but he can do nothing else on earth. ". Ludwig van Beethoven
Yeah, this is a really interesting component to Iommi's approach. Most people here probably think of "Classical" influence ala its evolution in progressive rock. But Iommi wasn't interested in using classical adaptations, he was interested in applying its use of dynamics towards his own musical creations.
Yeah, hes so mediocre to me that I cant wait to see him tommorrow night!!
No comment was made to suggest you don't appreciate Iommi's playing. It's that you've decided to "rank" him in a certain way and it seems to me that your mind is made up. You speak as if we should assume you're "expert" on the subject of rating the somehow universally established attributes of guitar players yet really haven't addressed a single point I've made. It's just not a reasoned discourse. Person A says: "I like this and that and this and that about his playing." Person B says: "I think you overrate him."Yeah, hes so mediocre to me that I cant wait to see him tommorrow night!!
That's basically the conversation in this thread where you have "contributed" though earlier you did talk about repeating trademark licks or something. So ... fine. Let's drop it. This thread is pretty good. You and I disagree on some points but we also have some common ground. The good news is that Tony Iommi doesn't give two shits. He's going to go down as one of the all time greats and make any list of great guitarists ever compiled whether you underrate him or I overrate him. He picks up awards left and right, appears on British TV as an expert and teacher, has at least one honorary doctorate and so on ...
He just picked up the National Guitar Museum's Lifetime Achievement Award the other day. He's the sixth recipient of the award and his company is Honeyboy Edwards, Roger McGuinn, B.B. King, Vic Flick, and Buddy Guy. I mean ... I could go on forever but it doesn't matter to people who don't hear it or care to hear it.
I think when you attain his level of acknowledgment, there will also be those who feel it is somehow slightly "undeserved" or that they can "see through" all of the praise. That's just part of how it works. The more people who recognize you for greatness in any art field will also bring legions who find you unworthy or "overrated." It's a good position to be in.
Enjoy the show. I'll be seeing them next month.
Last edited by JeffCarney; 08-20-2016 at 03:25 PM.
My good friend's CD (Tim Woods), which included many blues players on it as guests, had the last recordings that Honeyboy ever made.
"The White Zone is for loading and unloading only. If you got to load or unload go to the White Zone!"
No sir, Im well versed in music theory: What youre calling "jazz" is actually many recycled minor pentatonic licks mixed with many 'blue' notes (b3-3-4-b5-5-b6 a.k.a 'the blues scale')....on some of his solos, Iommi frequently plays b3rd/3rd and b5/5th hammer-ons/pull-offs and tagged with another note (he often uses a dom7 or a 3rd, minor or major, or the root as the resolve, but resolves on 'blue notes' a lot, too, particularly the b5. Resolving on blue notes like the b5 are one of the things that make him different from the other notable blues-rock solo greats, like Angus Young, who often resolves on a triad note -- Iommi also plays phrases that involve 4 and b5 often )....These are very popular blues (which is the core of his soloing), country, and jazz flavorings but often frequently heard with honky-tonk piano players. As Black Sabbath is arguably the first true heavy metal band, he was the first to add this type of flavoring to heavy metal (and to give credit where credit is due he's still one of the only metal players that does but not because of being a 'genius': his roots are the blues where modern players are more diatonic-ally oriented i.e. Randy Rhoads) -- Often, the dissonance of the b5, especially when used to resolve a phrase, is what makes many of his solos sound "evil")........................ I'm not hearing any tri-tone substitutions or true jazz scales in his soloing (such as Super Locrian) so calling him a "jazz influenced" soloist is a stretch, no matter what you or the tabloids say
.....His choices of notes for the better part of his career are generally minor and major pentatonics with all the "blue" passing notes ...Where he is jazz influenced is in rhythm patterns, in which he substitutes standard chord changes with more colorful voicings (such as substituting a standard Em with an Emadd9)...No sir, I stay affirmed about what I say: he's a good player, but I'm not seeing the genius-level attributes that you seem to be affording....and, yes, I can agree to disagree and we can move on and Im good with that but dont act like Im just running my mouth
EDIT: This post addresses the bulk of his 60s/70s catalog...He started to sprinkle in more diatonics into his soloing by late late 70s and 80s but still rebounded to pentatonics and blue-notes ( I don't want to be accused of 'reading minds' again but I imagine this approach by the younger players coming up in his genre may have influenced this)...
Last edited by klothos; 08-21-2016 at 02:31 AM.
and b6 is often #5 (augmented) in its usage, its just - when talking flats in keys (F, Bb, Eb, etc..), I generally don't say "sharp" anything lol
Last edited by klothos; 08-20-2016 at 11:20 PM.
I heard the Black Sabbath debut at my cousins house the week it was released in the U.S. along with Jethro Tull Stand Up. Tony Iommi and Martin Barre sound similar in their tone and in their phrasing of lead guitar work around this period in time. It was an observation of mine as a 15 year old and although I don't know if it quite holds up to be true when you compare it now....but here are a few examples: The guitar tone and style in "A New Day Yesterday", "Nothing Is Easy", and "Back To The Family" are Iommi Esq in everyway. I remember the first time hearing that intro to Aqualung and thinking immediately about Tony Iommi 's style/ sound.
I liked his playing on Vol. 4 ....but then I noticed his technique expanding on the next three albums that followed. Then he surprised me on Heaven and Hell. His vibrato was much smoother and his technique sounded more polished. It was in fact a little strange hearing that for the first time and the realization that it was him. It was like he made a quantum leap from how he played in the past.
A riff that Tony wrote during his brief stint with the band.
"The White Zone is for loading and unloading only. If you got to load or unload go to the White Zone!"
Right ..and so he was innovative to an overall sound in Rock. I can still hear Iommi 's sound on "Minstrel In The Gallery" and "Black Satin Dancer". It's smoothed over slightly...but it's still Iommi 's sound which prevails in that. But then again...some of the guitar licks Martin Barre plays when he trades off with Ian Anderson in " Black Satin Dancer" are not only licks /riffs that Iommi played but his phrasing as well.
When I was age 15 and learning Rock guitar ...I sat down with the "Tons Of Sobs-" album by Free and the Sabbath debut to make comparisons with a sound I thought I detected originally in Paul Kossoff's playing that was turned up a notch on the Black Sabbath album. I first thought I had heard the sound on songs like "Worry" and "Moonshine" and began to observe that Kossoff produced a different kind of dark sound for Rock guitar in '68 and that it may have been influential to the extension of what Tony Iommi was doing. Another guitarist that had this strange more dark tone for power chords and leads from a swamp in hell was Luther Grossvener of Spooky Tooth.
"I Am The Walrus" and "Better By You" was not a form of Psychedelic guitar sound. It completely differed from the Marshall amp sound that was being circulated through Rock music at that time as well. Although the sound was often produced through a Marshall head, the ideas of guitar phrasings were of a different approach entirely from Cream, Jimi Hendrix Experience, and to a degree Peter Green . "The Green Manalishi" doesn't even have that sound of heavy overtone. It differed from the guitar sound credited to Blue Cheer for starting the idea for Metal and Punk. I think Iommi took the sound steps further and created Metal sound itself. I believe he created the sound by choosing a different approach to what had already been experimented with and he put a definite stamp on it. He is an innovator in that way.
I just have no idea where you are. Tony Iommi's "genius" is not in the amount of scales he applies to his musical creations. That's not his bag. Just like most people don't want to hear Yngwie Malmsteen play the blues.
It's how Tony approaches what he knows. He has dabbled in more than you cite, but sparingly and convincingly. The level of sophistication in his playing simply isn't something everyone is going to hear just like with any guitar player, and that's fine. Plenty do hear it. And I know players who I rank FAR higher than myself with degrees and musical knowledge far beyond mine who would absolutely agree with me, and absolutely disagree with you. But ... who cares? We seem to agree that we can drop it.
I'll just say that if you think this is not Jazz-influenced, we're just not from the same background of music appreciation:
Planet Caravan is a rare Iommi excursion into the Dorian mode.
Jazzy perhaps, but not jazz imo.
no tunes, no dynamics, no nosebone
Yup. Although not rare. In the portion of many of the live shows in the 70s that were dedicated to him improvising and soloing, he'd throw in this weird, jazz-influenced stuff with Dorian being a mode he liked to work in.
I must have missed it if someone said that Iommi plays straight jazz, but the point is that he was influenced by it and brought that into his own playing in a manner that is quite unusual in rock. It also influenced his phrasings and time. He really can swing when he solos, and that's just not something you hear from rock players. If you ever hear him talk about his favorite guitarists, besides Django Reinhardt it will be people like Joe Pass, Wes Montgomery, Barney Kessel ...
Last edited by JeffCarney; 08-21-2016 at 07:07 PM.
Great guitarist, very melodic, and inventive. Love his solos, on early albums especially.
maybe this is where our hiccup is: I barely hear any of that in his playing and, even then, I don't take it as any kind of jazz influence....I do hear a lot of blues, though.......................Enjoy the show: I sure as hell did!!!
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