Piper at the Gates and Sgt Peppers, Simultaneity

[StevegSr]

Where does all this revisionist history come from? According to Beatles' biographer/discographer supreme Mark Lewisohn, the Beatles' former recording engineer turned produce Norman "Hurricane" Smith brought the Floyd to meet the Bealtes in one of the three Abby Road Studios. They were promptly given a cold shoulder by the Fabs, who hated outsiders in "their space." They shook in front of Eric Clapton when he played on "My Guitar Gently Weeps", but he was no outsider, being a mate of Mr. Harrison. (And Clapton was God, after all.)

[Mister Triscuits]

According to Beatles' biographer/discographer supreme Mark Lewisohn, the Beatles' former recording engineer turned produce Norman "Hurricane" Smith brought the Floyd to meet the Bealtes in one of the three Abby Road Studios. They were promptly given a cold shoulder by the Fabs, who hated outsiders in "their space."

Nick Mason's account is that they were ushered into the studio while the Beatles were recording and mixing "Lovely Rita," there was "little, if any, banter with the Beatles," and after a short time they were ushered out again. The recording part would have been George Martin overdubbing the piano solo, Ringo was absent, and John was tripping his ass off--this was the infamous session where George Martin thought John was ill, and brought him up to the rooftop for some fresh air. When Paul and George realized that John had been left unattended on the rooftop, they scurried up to retrieve him.

[StevegSr]

Nick Mason's account is that they were ushered into the studio while the Beatles were recording and mixing "Lovely Rita," there was "little, if any, banter with the Beatles," and after a short time they were ushered out again. The recording part would have been George Martin overdubbing the piano solo, Ringo was absent, and John was tripping his ass off--this was the infamous session where George Martin thought John was ill, and brought him up to the rooftop for some fresh air. When Paul and George realized that John had been left unattended on the rooftop, they scurried up to retrieve him.

What a coincidence. Now if this doesn't sound revisionist, what does? Btw, the Beatles' recording engineer (Revolver, Sgt. Pepper's) Geoff Emerick's bio makes no mention of the Floyd, just Lennon tripping on the roof!

[rcarlberg]

... John was tripping his ass off--

Hmmm. Maybe the "baton" the Beatles passed was on fire?

[Mister Triscuits]

What a coincidence. Now if this doesn't sound revisionist, what does? Btw, the Beatles' recording engineer (Revolver, Sgt. Pepper's) Geoff Emerick's bio makes no mention of the Floyd, just Lennon tripping on the roof!

Just to be clear, only my first sentence was Nick Mason's account from his Floyd book. The rest of it, including fact that the Floyd visit was the same session as the Lennon rooftop incident, came from the same authority you referenced previously: Mark Lewisohn, in his Recording Sessions book.

[Paulrus]

The other connection is that Piper was produced by Norman Smith, who til that point had been making his living as an engineer for EMI and had worked on a large chunk of early Beatles recordings. So he knew both bands.

Ironically I've always felt that the engineering work on Piper was not up to what he had done for the Beatles. But Smith wasn't the engineer for that album, and I'm sure PF were operating on a smaller budget than the Beatles were used to!

[Firth]

The other connection is that Piper was produced by Norman Smith, who til that point had been making his living as an engineer for EMI and had worked on a large chunk of early Beatles recordings. So he knew both bands.

Ironically I've always felt that the engineering work on Piper was not up to what he had done for the Beatles. But Smith wasn't the engineer for that album, and I'm sure PF were operating on a smaller budget than the Beatles were used to!

Floyd didn't have George Martin either.

[Firth]

The documentary:

https://youtu.be/H2F1oH73leU

@39:50 the discussion turns to EMI and Abbey Road Studios.

[ronmac]

Good discussion. While it came a tad later, we cannot ignore "I am the Walrus," which not only helped define the genre, it was heavily inspired by Lewis Carrol, so there is a children's literature connection.

[notallwhowander]

I wonder how many people who have posted on this thread have actually dropped acid at some point.

[rcarlberg]

I wonder how many people who have posted on this thread have actually dropped acid at some point.

Who can remember.

[Enid]

I was disappointed in Norman Smith's attitude towards Syd Barrett. Norman Smith says on a video...."He didn't...He didn't act as an M.D.."He spoke through his songs". I don't buy the M.D. part. Of course he acted as a music director with members of Floyd. Of course he did! All the comments from these guys regarding how Syd Barrett directed them and taught them when not to play....(which seems simplistic to some, but vital to master?), and how he had great ideas and did most of the writing , which guided them to harness a sound for Pink Floyd that continued for years.


Maybe he wasn't a music director in the traditional sense and it's very possible that he communicated a lot to the band when Norman Smith was busy doing something else. He's just a snob that's all. Syd Barrett was into the AMMMMUSIC album and wanted to experiment with sounds and not unlike any Krautrocker would do in the 70's. Yeah...he spoke through his songs..but he was a lot deeper than that. Norman Smith states that he suggested a brass section for "Jugband Blues". Syd Barrett suggested a Salvation Army Band. Norman Smith asked Syd Barrett..."Why a Salvation Army Band?" Syd Barrett supposedly said......."I don't know, I think I can hear that".....which is a direct indication that Barrett heard something in his head and produced ideas from it. I believe that Norman Smith's curiosity was based on not understanding Syd Barrett's approach to music at all.

Then the Salvation Army Band arrives to the studio on time and Barrett arrives late. Then Norman Smith asks Syd Barrett ..."What would you like them to play?". Barrett replies, ""Oh...I don't know really....play anything really" Norman Smith says, "Uh...no, no, Syd....they can't just play anything, I haven't jotted down any dots and we would like to know your views" Syd Barrett says, "I don't know". Norman Smith says, "Well what would you like them to play?" Syd Barrett replied....." Well play anything really...they can play whatever they'd like" I mean seriously.....sometimes Avant-Garde musicians will just say that to you at a session......"Play anything you'd like". I believe that Syd Barrett wanted that Salvation Army Band to sound like confusion.To be chaotic.


Barrett was into that AMMMMUSIC album and wanted to deliver the same vibe only through Rock music and Norman Smith being a snobby traditionalist had no clue what Syd Barrett was about. Syd Barrett wrote all those candy lollypop sounding songs...but he was also drawn to other styles of music. I believe Chris Cutler may have been interested in creating a new kind of music that was chaotic sounding and I strongly believe that Syd Barrett was following that path as well. Syd Barrett was a fan of Soft Machine. Think about it.

[regenerativemusic]

This is the only version of Sgt Peppers I've ever heard.

[Svetonio]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

Even if it is 100% demonstrably undeniably appallingly wrong.

Oh really? Just tell me please which one of the 60s The Pink Floyd's freakbeat songs could be compared with e.g. The End?
Re Sgt Pepper, well of course that someone who prefer pop, always will prefer Sgt. Pepper more than any of The Doors' albums.

[Halmyre]

Oh really? Just tell me please which one of the 60s The Pink Floyd's freakbeat songs could be compared with e.g. The End?
Re Sgt Pepper, well of course that someone who prefer pop, always will prefer Sgt. Pepper more than any of The Doors' albums.

Some people like oranges and some people like apples and some people like both and some people like neither. I like both and sometimes I want an apple and sometimes I want an orange. But sometimes I want a banana.

[JJ88]

^Quite. Such pointless comparisons.

[Svetonio]

Some people like oranges and some people like apples and some people like both and some people like neither. I like both and sometimes I want an apple and sometimes I want an orange. But sometimes I want a banana.

That shit about apples and oranges I've heard a million times and that's not an argument, so do not try to be his lawyer and leave him to say which of PF 60s 'freakbeat' songs is stronger than e.g. The End by The Doors.

[JJ88]

Here we go again...

[Svetonio]

Here we go again...

I didn't ask you anything.

[Trane]

I don't think anyone would call the Doors' first two albums "freakbeat"

[Svetonio]

I don't think anyone would call the Doors' first two albums "freakbeat"

Of course not, because the term 'freakbeat' - coined in the 1980s by Phil Smee of the Bam Caruso reissue label - refers only to the British psychedelic rock scene '66-'68.

[StevegSr]

Just to be clear, only my first sentence was Nick Mason's account from his Floyd book. The rest of it, including fact that the Floyd visit was the same session as the Lennon rooftop incident, came from the same authority you referenced previously: Mark Lewisohn, in his Recording Sessions book.

To be fair, and to stop yanking your chain, both Lewisohn's book and Emerick's autobio Here, There, and Everywhere state exactly the same thing with Emerick going on to emphasize that "no further interaction between the Floyd and the Fabs ever come about after the Harrison's and McCartney's cold reception to the Pink Floyd members brought in by Norman Smith."

So, still no John Lennon saying "PatGoD was going to be great", "Syd's a genius", etc., etc., etc..

[Firth]

To be fair, and to stop yanking your chain, both Lewisohn's book and Emerick's autobio Here, There, and Everywhere state exactly the same thing with Emerick going on to emphasize that "no further interaction between the Floyd and the Fabs ever come about after the Harrison's and McCartney's cold reception to the Pink Floyd members brought in by Norman Smith."

So, still no John Lennon saying "PatGoD was going to be great", "Syd's a genius", etc., etc., etc..

Who quoted Lennon as saying "Syd's a genius". Perhaps you are making up shit, to create a drama.

I can't believe the comparisons to the Doors. Sgt Peppers which came out in 67, the Doors and Pet Sounds which came out before, were the beginning of expanding pop rock into art rock. The British psych trailed American, but I loved it all and it was the spirit of taking whatever you know and spinning it in a different way, which meant a different result. Difference matters, and we don't need to talk about whose dick is bigger.

[Firth]

http://consequenceofsound.net/2014/1...unter-in-1967/

[Svetonio]

Both Piper and Sgt. Pepper would have been way better albums with Arnold Layne / See Emily Play and Strawberry Fields Forever / Penny Lane on those LPs.