John McLaughlin: Underrated, overrated or just about right?

[chalkpie]

My issue with the solo on "Dawn" has a bit to do with discipline but nothing to do with sloppiness.

The solo is out of place within the context of the music at hand.

Its definitely not mellow by any stretch, but that was the guy's M.O. back then, wasn't it? (see what I did there?)

He does go into "machine gun" mode, but if you notice how the tune develops into that more uptempo, semi-funkier groove that follows, I think he was steering the band into that section like some deranged captain aboard a small vessel in an extremely violent sea with complete disregard with his surroundings. Or he just played what his mind and heart ultimately told him to play - nothing less or nothing more. I actually dig it - it has teeth, rips raw flesh, and makes no apologies. I think your opinion is just as valid as the fan for 40+ years who knows every last note of that solo and wouldn't change a thing, but there is no definitive statement carved in stone that says it doesn't or shouldn't belong imo.

[JeffCarney]

Most musical ideas can be "explained." Especially if they happen to be by a musician whom one admires.

I certainly don't mean to suggest that my viewpoint can possibly be anything but subjective, but "Dawn" has a guitar solo which I rank as an example of somewhat poor musicianship. There was plenty of room for fire-breathing stuff on the debut MO album, it just doesn't belong there and sounds like a man completely missing the feel of music. Even that which he himself composed!

I mean, look ... if I put a Phil Miller-like solo onto "Comfortably Numb," I suppose I could argue that it was my total disregard for convention. But I'm not sure how much credit should be given if that in and of itself is the only thing such an approach attains.

[mjudge]

I get what Jeff's saying about "Dawn", the jagged and ripping guitar solo is an odd juxtaposition against the mellow backing music, but that's precisely what I love about it: the audacity and outrageous disregard for convention. And perhaps taste. It's a trainwreck of a guitar solo in the most fantastic way, to me it sounds first-take, high-energy, of-the-moment.

That's what I miss in pretty much everything by McLaughlin after the late '70s – he was so batshit on-the-edge with Miles and Mahavishnu that his later work seems uniformly pretty safe and sterile to me.

[chalkpie]

Even that which he himself composed!

I mean, look ... if I put a Phil Miller-like solo onto "Comfortably Numb," I suppose I could argue that it was my total disregard for convention. But I'm not sure how much credit should be given if that in and of itself is the only thing such an approach attains.

Ha - the composed part is funny indeed!

Phil Miller over "Comfortably Numb"? Hmmmm........sign me up. Convention and natural musicianship says Gilmour should play over it, hold long sustained notes on a strat, etc etc but you're talking to the wrong guy if you want convention. I tend to err in favor of the unconventional, especially if it makes it sound different and unique, possibly uncomfortable. You're talking to a guy who made an album with lead vocals comprised of a guy trying to emulate a robot, so the Miller analogy sounds interesting to me. But I hear 'ya, and I dig it.

[JeffCarney]

Ha - the composed part is funny indeed!

Phil Miller over "Comfortably Numb"? Hmmmm........sign me up. Convention and natural musicianship says Gilmour should play over it, hold long sustained notes on a strat, etc etc but you're talking to the wrong guy if you want convention. I tend to err in favor of the unconventional, especially if it makes it sound different and unique, possibly uncomfortable. You're talking to a guy who made an album with lead vocals comprised of a guy trying to emulate a robot, so the Miller analogy sounds interesting to me. But I hear 'ya, and I dig it.

Well, for example, in 1988 I was in this duo:

CODE ZERO: Process of Improvisation (cassette tape on Audiofile Tapes, 209-25 18 Ave., Bayside, NY 11360, USA).

This 60 minute tape features a pair of fairly lively improv electronic pieces with overlapping growling sequencer runs and shrill keyboard accompaniment...and another pair of pieces best described as duels between psycho violin and frantic-picking acoustic guitar.
http://www.soniccuriosity.com/text/ctext.htm

I use this only to illustrate that I'm versed in the unconventional. I've recorded electronic music albums, been "anti-midi" in the 80s, and whatever else I could think of which made musical sense in my world. I've probably seen Anthony Braxton ten times. Fred Frith, Derek Bailey, Hans Reichel, Don Pullen, Sun Ra, Cecil Taylor, Rova ... this was the kind of music I went to see in my late teens/early twenties. Chick Corea or Jean-Luc Ponty was positively straight ahead compared to the music I was absorbing. And I still like "out there" stuff.

But at 48? Nah. I probably appreciate the musicality of The Band more than that self-indulgent racecourse event that is the MO. Restraint and discipline for the purpose of beauty in music means a lot to me. But don't get me wrong, I can still dial up something like "The Life Divine" and sit in utter awe at McLaughlin's machine gun picking, sky shattering bends and appreciate all the passion he brings to the musical table. The difference is that there, I hear it as appropriate.

[Adrian]

My opinion squares with a lot of what Jeff has had to say. I adored MO for many years -- and though I didn't hear much of JM's work outside of MO, what I heard always impressed me. The San Francisco album with DeLucia and DiMeola is a great example.

His abilities as a guitarist are unquestionable. His passion is clear and unmistakable. However, a lot of his music hasn't aged well for me. I have the same problem with it as I do with Dream Theater. The technique is amazing, but after a while I just feel fatigued from the constant flurry of 32nd and 64th notes. It feels as if JM only knew one speed, regardless of context. "Dawn," as Jeff cited, is a good example. "Thousand Island Park" is another one. Beautiful piece of music, but it feels like it's fighting with itself over whether it wants to be a gentle ballad or another exercise in speed-picking.

So, in my estimation, "about right." Incredible talent with (IMHO) sometimes questionable taste.

But then, what do I know? I could be like the emperor telling Mozart he was using too many notes ..

[Kcrimso]

I'm with you guys....Trio live at RFH is one of my faves.

Mine too! And sound quality on that one is also incredible.

[alucard]

Interesting read:
http://jazztimes.com/articles/172220...ohn-mclaughlin

[StevegSr]

I get what Jeff's saying about "Dawn", the jagged and ripping guitar solo is an odd juxtaposition against the mellow backing music, but that's precisely what I love about it: the audacity and outrageous disregard for convention. And perhaps taste. It's a trainwreck of a guitar solo in the most fantastic way, to me it sounds first-take, high-energy, of-the-moment. They all captured something and likely realized it was beautiful just as it is. McLaughlin sounds like he's reaching and taking a shit-ton of chances, some of which work out amazingly (like how he holds that one note with a touch of growing feedback over the next chord change; that's pretty cool).

+1. As an old friend of mine used to say: "And now for something completely different!"

[pb2015]

I'd suggest Coltrane's "Naima" from the Live at the Village Vanguard Again record as a precedent for a very non-calm solo over a calm piece.

[Vic2012]

I have four MO albums, and the one he did with Santana. All good fusion albums, although I'm not a huge fan of JM's soloing. His off pitchy-ness can be cringe inducing at times. Said it before, I like Carlos' playing a lot more than John's on LDS.

[Zeuhlmate]

Rawalpindi Blues
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZNkt5z2yKY

[StevegSr]

Rawalpindi Blues
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZNkt5z2yKY

I'm trancing, I think.

[Hal...]

Once again, I'm late to the party. Six years late, to be exact. Is anyone still here? Is there any beer left?

I searched the forum for "Five Peace Band" and ran across this thread and read through it. The purpose of posting now, so much later, is that I think this is one of the greatest posts I've ever read on PE and I just wanted to point that out... because I couldn't agree more:

[The solo in "Dawn" is] definitely not mellow by any stretch, but that was the guy's M.O. back then, wasn't it? (see what I did there?)

He does go into "machine gun" mode, but if you notice how the tune develops into that more uptempo, semi-funkier groove that follows, I think he was steering the band into that section like some deranged captain aboard a small vessel in an extremely violent sea with complete disregard with his surroundings. Or he just played what his mind and heart ultimately told him to play - nothing less or nothing more. I actually dig it - it has teeth, rips raw flesh, and makes no apologies.

chalkpie "gets it".

[mozo-pg]

I'd say rated at the right level, stellar!

[Camelogue]

Overrated

[Dana5140]

I use this only to illustrate that I'm versed in the unconventional. I've recorded electronic music albums, been "anti-midi" in the 80s, and whatever else I could think of which made musical sense in my world. I've probably seen Anthony Braxton ten times. Fred Frith, Derek Bailey, Hans Reichel, Don Pullen, Sun Ra, Cecil Taylor, Rova ... this was the kind of music I went to see in my late teens/early twenties. Chick Corea or Jean-Luc Ponty was positively straight ahead compared to the music I was absorbing. And I still like "out there" stuff.

This is my life as a younger person as well. And I miss it like hell. I helped put on shows with Anthony Braxton and Roscoe Mitchell, and the AEC, and met Sun Ra, and so on. I miss that music, and those days. That kind of expression seems lacking today and that sense of anarchy and freedom.

Camelogue, JM can never be overrated. His importance to the history of jazz is without peer, and his technical skills are likely the most advanced of anyone alive. Watch one of his teaching videos. You do not have to like him, but be real about his role and importance in the history of modern electric and acoustic guitar-based music.

[nosebone]

He's rated as a trail blazing innovative guitar virtuoso by most every musician.

[StarThrower]

He's rated as a trail blazing innovative guitar virtuoso by most every musician.

He also deserves recognition as a composer and bandleader of many renowned ensembles. I'm not crazy about his guitar tones or soloing style on electric guitar but I really enjoy his acoustic work.

[wideopenears]

He is still easily recognizable as JM, regardless of what guitar, or what software or amp (or both) he's playing through. Few have such a unique voice. One of the greats, IMO, and he is still blazing at his age. Also has mixed it up with various projects, though I think 4th Dimension may be his longest running band at this point. It's also evident that he's enjoying himself. However, I am reminded of the time he and Allan Holdsworth were hanging out and JM told Allan "I would do what you do, if I could figure out what you're doing!" I rate AH a bit higher in the pantheon, but that's just me. Also, these guys played "Fusion"--when they played "Straight ahead" they were good, but nobody is Joe Pass but Joe Pass, or Wes....or......well, I hope you get my meaning.

[nosebone]

Also, these guys played "Fusion"--when they played "Straight ahead" they were good, but nobody is Joe Pass but Joe Pass, or Wes....or......well, I hope you get my meaning.

True, Johnny Mac wasn't a chord melody player but he practically invented fusion guitar

[wideopenears]

True, Johnny Mac wasn't a chord melody player but he practically invented fusion guitar

Yes, and "Lady C"....though JM has a wider influence, I think.

[nosebone]

Yes, and "Lady C"....though JM has a wider influence, I think.

You mean Larry C?
Not as creative as Maha John

[wideopenears]

You mean Larry C?
Not as creative as Maha John

Sure, I agree...but Larry definitely was an early guy who incorporated jazz ideas with that rock rhythm and volume, etc. When Larry was on, man, he blazed. But JM created a whole new bag, with the Indian influence. Honestly, not many people still incorporate that thing......Garaj Mahal, and a few others. With him it wasn't just Jazz and Rock in the pot...gotta add that Carnatic and Hindustani spice!

[nosebone]

Sure, I agree...but Larry definitely was an early guy who incorporated jazz ideas with that rock rhythm and volume, etc. When Larry was on, man, he blazed. But JM created a whole new bag, with the Indian influence. Honestly, not many people still incorporate that thing......Garaj Mahal, and a few others. With him it wasn't just Jazz and Rock in the pot...gotta add that Carnatic and Hindustani spice!

True! His time feel is ridiculous