Miles Davis. Miles Davis. Miles Davis.

[mogrooves]

Black Saint

Mingus, Billy Harper, or the label?

[rcarlberg]

Mingus is "Black Saint and the Sinner Lady," isn't it?

[mogrooves]

Yes, if that's what he's referring to.

[Trane]

Yes, if that's what he's referring to.

Yes, Mingus' brilliant songwriting rules on that album

[Dan Marsh]

Caravanseari, then Bitches Brew then Love Supreme then Black Saint was my main trail landmarks (of cout-rse , there were intermediary stopovers)

All desert island discs!

[Spiral]

I can understand Miles contribution to the genre and appreciate his relentless forward movement.

I think that my problems here come down to two things. As a composer I think Mingus and Ellington were way ahead of him. ... The muted trumpet sound gets a little old for me. Again, this may be a fault of mine, not Miles.

"Fault" isn't the word. True (as Trane says), Miles wasn't an exceptional composer--certainly not in the league of those others and many more we could name. So what. His strengths lay in other areas, and it seems you simply gravitate toward the qualities he didn't put such an emphasis on. Nothing wrong with either.

Been listening to a lot of the SGQ lately and can't help but wish Shorter had gone in a different direction than the much safer fuzak of Weather Report in the 70s.

Wow. Have to definitely disagree there. WR's successors may have gone bland and some of the synth sounds later got associated with elevator music, but we shouldn't blame them for their imitators. Especially at the time, there was nothing safe about it.

[polmico]

I can't help regarding the liner notes.

For me the most notable thing is that as far as I know the box is the only official release of the original mono Miles Ahead. There have been attempts to reconstruct a stereo version of the album (it wasn't released in stereo originally) but, to make a long story short, they have shortcomings. There was also a mono CD in the early 90's but the producer put in an alternate take of one secton.

As to the other albums, Milestones also originally was mono only. Around the 90's there was a good stereo mix of it released but it is still worth hearing it in its original form. Kind Of Blue works well in stereo but the mono version is a worthwhile alternate view of the album. I'd guess that's true of the others as well although I haven't compared the mixes.

Thanks!

[rcarlberg]

Miles wasn't an exceptional composer--certainly not in the league of those others and many more we could name. So what.

[No Pride]

Woooooowwww, here!!! "stuck"???

Not only did Trane's "modal jazz albums" all contained at least one "bop jazz" track, but it's not like modal jazz is a prison.... it's a long and winding road of (and not "to") liberty, especially for the listeners once they've (easily) acquired to tools to dig (and the use of narcotics is not the only way).

Furthermore, though not a big fan of bop jazz), Trane did the ultimate bop albums with Giant Steps and Favourite Things, ones that Miles was never able to outdo (IMHO) even six or seven years later.

You're taking what I said out of context, like I was dissing what Trane was doing, which I absolutely was not. I consider him to be one of the greatest jazz musicians of all time and his quartet to be one of the greatest small groups. I was simply implying that they fell into a certain trademark sound through half of a decade, which isn't to say it wasn't a great one. And I'm well versed in his Atlantic and Prestige albums, where he took Bop further than it had previously gone. Even on the Impulse label, he reverted back to his earlier style once in a while with his albums with Johnny Hartman and Duke Ellington and his quartet's "Ballads" album. All I was trying to say was that Miles' SGQ were more experimental as a whole, trying to do some very different things from one album to the next. And as players, Miles and Trane were apples and oranges. Both were very much conceptual artists, but Miles was nowhere near the virtuoso Trane was. And to be fair, I don't think he was trying to be.

[rapidfirerob]

IASW on for me. BB, In A Silent Way, Jack Johnson are my favorites. Kind Of Blue is kind of all right as well.

[per anporth]

You are correct about Trane. However his "sheets of sound" late period playing may not be "self-indulgent" exactly but it requires a certain DETERMINATION (shall we say) from listeners to get through it.

Ira Gitler coined the phrase "sheets of sound" to characterise Coltrane's playing before he rejoined Miles' Quintet, & before he recorded Giant Steps & its successors - Black Pearls would be an lp which exemplified this way of playing.

For anyone who thinks Coltrane got stuck in a modal rut with the Quartet, it's worth checking out the astonishing range of music he produced in 1964/5 - something like a new album's worth of material monthly. The contrast between, say, First Meditations & Sun Ship is hard to fathom, given their relative proximity in recording dates.

As for Miles - I respect the 2nd Quintet, but I return most often to the live recordings from the European tour in Spring 1960 - which capture what I think, in retrospect, is possibly the most significant moment in the history of jazz.

[per anporth]

Been listening to a lot of the SGQ lately and can't help but wish Shorter had gone in a different direction than the much safer fuzak of Weather Report in the 70s.Such amazing playing and energy on this stuff.

Absolutely agree with this. By contrast, his work over the last decade or so with his own quartet is wonderful, & seems altogether more in tune with his work with Miles in the 60s.

[jake]

Absolutely agree with this. By contrast, his work over the last decade or so with his own quartet is wonderful, & seems altogether more in tune with his work with Miles in the 60s.

Shorter's initial offerings as a leader were really great - the handful of albums from 1960-1965 were really superb examples of another possible direction for hard-bop which should have put him at that time in the same class as Coltrane and Rollins but, like Coltrane's 7 years from 1955-1961, he chose to work with Miles and he stayed even longer - 9 years - 1962-1970. Both players were very different by the time they 'broke' with Miles - but I would say Coltrane continued to progress while Shorter consolidated his learnings and to my ears did not build much with Weather Report and after.
BTW a forgotten gem of an album is Tony Williams 'Spring' featuring Shorter and Sam Rivers on tenors along with Herbie Hancock and Gary Peacock on bass - from 1965 it sounds a lot like the 60s Miles Quintet and has an awesome brooding atmosphere - very highly recommended.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VeD...7C0EB73EE5818A

[rcarlberg]

Ira Gitler coined the phrase "sheets of sound" to characterise Coltrane's playing before he rejoined Miles' Quintet, & before he recorded Giant Steps & its successors - Black Pearls would be an lp which exemplified this way of playing.

I had Black Pearls at one point (along with about sixty other Trane LPs) and concur that his playing at this time was intense. One of Miles Davis's strengths, I think, is his ability to let silence reign, to hint at a melody without overplaying it, to play fewer notes and have each one carry more weight. In contrast John always believed in maximum NPM and often his solos had only the barest association with the tune being played. There were recordings, around the time of his "sheets of sound" period, where I wondered if he was being paid by the note.

[jkelman]

Interestingly, I find him to be more of a stylist than a virtuoso on his instrument. Freddie Hubbard and Donald Byrd were much more sure-footed on the instrument, but Miles was far more distinctive as a stylist, IMO.

I'd say that depends upon what era we're talking about. From 1963-1975, with rare exception, Miles was at the top of his game, technically speaking, and was as sure-footed as any on his instrument...and perhaps even more capable of a remarkable breadth of emotion on his horn to boot, from fragile vulnerability to passionate fire and, perhaps to some, surprising chops.

Especially 1964-1968, and narrowed even further to the second great quintet (with Wayne Shorter, Herbie Hancock, Ron Carter & Tony Williams), there were few who could touch Miles as the full package, IMO.

I've been reacquainting myself with '65='75 was Mobile Fidelity slowly reissues some of the great albums of that period on SACD Hybrid, from E.S.P., Sorceress and Nefertiti to Filles de Kilimanjaro, In a Silent Way and Bitches Brew. Looking forward to Jack Johnson, Miles in the Sky and On the Corner, all due out in the relatively near future.

[Trane]

I'd say that depends upon what era we're talking about. From 1963-1975, with rare exception, Miles was at the top of his game, technically speaking, and was as sure-footed as any on his instrument...and perhaps even more capable of a remarkable breadth of emotion on his horn to boot, from fragile vulnerability to passionate fire and, perhaps to some, surprising chops.

Although I tend to like Miles attitude of the early 70's ("why play so many notes?? just play the good ones") and the fact that his silences were almost saying more than his interventions, I would tend to attribute that to his attitude (Directions in Music) rather than his virtuosity.

[No Pride]

Shorter's initial offerings as a leader were really great - the handful of albums from 1960-1965 were really superb examples of another possible direction for hard-bop which should have put him at that time in the same class as Coltrane and Rollins but, like Coltrane's 7 years from 1955-1961, he chose to work with Miles and he stayed even longer - 9 years - 1962-1970. Both players were very different by the time they 'broke' with Miles - but I would say Coltrane continued to progress while Shorter consolidated his learnings and to my ears did not build much with Weather Report and after.

Though those '60s albums of Shorter's are my favorites, I can't agree that he didn't build much afterwards. He continued to flourish as a composer, branching out in various different directions, sometimes with lengthy through-composed pieces. And as a player, he's still very much on his game.

I had Black Pearls at one point (along with about sixty other Trane LPs) and concur that his playing at this time was intense. One of Miles Davis's strengths, I think, is his ability to let silence reign, to hint at a melody without overplaying it, to play fewer notes and have each one carry more weight. In contrast John always believed in maximum NPM and often his solos had only the barest association with the tune being played. There were recordings, around the time of his "sheets of sound" period, where I wondered if he was being paid by the note.

It was always associated with the tune being played; he was playing over the form of the song, i.e. it's chord progression. He would extend the harmony, implying more chord changes than initially intended, but never straying from the tune's structure. And that's what all (except free form) jazz improvisation is based on.

[Trane]

I had Black Pearls at one point (along with about sixty other Trane LPs) and concur that his playing at this time was intense..

TBH, I always considred Trane's albums for the Prestige label totally uninteresting. I always wondered why he bothered continuing with them after signing to Impulse! Contractual obligations maybe. I mean Dakar, Last Time, Black Pearls, Bahia and Setting the Pace (63) were a return to his pre-Atlantic days (IMHO, anyways)

[JJ88]

Not familiar with the albums in question but they were doubtless sessions held back for future release...same as with the mid 50s Miles Davis quintet sessions (involving Coltrane) for the same label.

[mogrooves]

they were doubtless sessions held back for future release...

Yes, compilations of various recordings from multiple sessions, some on which he was a sideman.

[Trane]

Not familiar with the albums in question but they were doubtless sessions held back for future release...same as with the mid 50s Miles Davis quintet sessions (involving Coltrane) for the same label.

somebody once hinted that to me, but I failed to check the actual session recording dates

Prestige was Trane's first label if memory serves... That's before he joined Miles or recorded for Atco

[pb2015]

somebody once hinted that to me, but I failed to check the actual session recording dates

Prestige was Trane's first label if memory serves... That's before he joined Miles or recorded for Atco

Actually he began recording as a leader for Prestige in 1957 after the breakup of the first Miles quintet.

[pb2015]

I'd say that depends upon what era we're talking about. From 1963-1975, with rare exception, Miles was at the top of his game, technically speaking, and was as sure-footed as any on his instrument...and perhaps even more capable of a remarkable breadth of emotion on his horn to boot, from fragile vulnerability to passionate fire and, perhaps to some, surprising chops.

Especially 1964-1968, and narrowed even further to the second great quintet (with Wayne Shorter, Herbie Hancock, Ron Carter & Tony Williams), there were few who could touch Miles as the full package, IMO.

For technically impressive trumpet from Miles I don't think there are many better recordings than "Right Off" from 1970.

Unfortunately his chops weren't so good around 1972-75, health/drug problems and all that.

[wideopenears]

I think Black Pearls is an important milestone for Trane (pun not intended!). He took his chord extension arpeggiation to the outer limits.


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[mogrooves]

I think Black Pearls is an important milestone for Trane (pun not intended!). He took his chord extension arpeggiation to the outer limits.

Yeah, this is the one.