Rock Improvisation discussion

[Mascodagama]

Bingo. One of the problems with the original R.I.O movement.

Despite all the good music, it was set up to be exclusionary, rather than inclusionary.

IMO.

It does seem that way to me, looking at it very much from the outside.

O/T but with what's currently happening in the Labour Party here in the UK we appear to have gone right back to the seventies with nothing learned.

[Steve F.]

For my money, Crimson's improvs tended to be more 'rock' than Cow and more interesting to listen to.

"Interesting" is a loaded word.

I would personally generally rather listen to KC improvs than HC improvs.

YMMV.

[Trane]

Trane,

Did they do FULL improvisations (not jams in a structure, but full on improvisations) that were RELEASED on official albums back in the day?

Zep didn't do full on improvs. Definitely not. I know their catalog well enough to state that.
QMS jammed around structure, unless you know albums I don't (and iirc, Happy Trails is all jamming around structure).

That's not what Cozy is asking.

Neither did (IMHO) Grateful Dead that you were bringing up (I did see them 8 times in the 80's, and it was always all based on a song structure)

I agree that "jam bands" did not improvise the way it was asked in Cozy's OP.

[Steve F.]

Neither did (IMHO) Grateful Dead that you were bringing up (I did see them 8 times in the 80's, and it was always all based on a song structure)

I brought up the Dead with a question mark, specifically stating that I didn't know if they would fit.
I am not knowledgeable enough about their recordings to ask for their inclusion based on my knowledge.

So, no. They don't belong.

[N_Singh]

Two words. Modal vamp.

The absolute worst case scenario would be Led Zeppelin, or the drummer and the bass player wind up laying out .

And you get a 38 minute version of dazed and confused built around a couple scales .

Absolutely horrible shit . But when the entire stadium is one big cloud of smoke, I guess no one really noticed in 1973 .

[PeterG]

got me thinking about how there don't seem to be lots of really excellent rock albums that have solid tracks of full improv - especially in the rock idiom.

But isn't that partly because full blown improv tracks by 70s rock bands tended to leave the rock idiom quite quickly and harked back to the fusion, blues and jazz that the band used to play before it settled down into a rock band? That is definitely what still happens in my experience when I've seen bands like Deep Purple live. Whereas most current rock bands don't have the past fusion, jazz or blues experience to fall back on. Just my 5 cents.

[spiderfeathers]

The most obvious example I think is Can.

Also, just remembered Gastr Del Sol. Chicago band from 90's. Pretty sure a lot was improvised. Slightly off topic, but anyone in Chicago want to do this? Send me a message!

[Svetonio]

A vast majority of Rock bands in the middle and the second half of the seventies actually ceased to improvise at the concerts because that "sound is the same as on the LP" was in vogue then.

[Steve F.]

Nowadays there are a zillion of underground rock bands who do nothing but improvise or do a lot of improvising.
On record and in concert.

So, it's not such a big deal or brave deal now as it was then, I think.

[StevegSr]

Nowadays there are a zillion of underground rock bands who do nothing but improvise or do a lot of improvising.
On record and in concert.

So, it's not such a big deal or brave deal now as it was then, I think.

This is true and I think that's why 70's fusion groups like Brand X became so popular to see live. But that's another genre, oops!

[Facelift]

I don't know about The Mars Volta, but I'm pretty sure Omar Rodriguez-Lopez puts whole-track improvs on his albums. I mean, how else to keep releasing 5 albums a year, or whatever he was doing for awhile?

[Tributary Records]

To me, that would be Miles during the "In a Silent Way, Bitches Brew" era, then continued by Johnny Mac with Mahavishnu. Everyone else was either just following along or pretending. Hancock, Corea,

My opinion is that the coined term "Jazz fusion" IS rock improvisation. Most of the drumming was not swinging the beat out enough for it to really have "jazz" as the defining description.

[StevegSr]

My opinion is that the coined term "Jazz fusion" IS rock improvisation. Most of the drumming was not swinging the beat out enough for it to really have "jazz" as the defining description.

My sentiments exactly but I'm not sure that some of the people here can emotionally handle that.

[mike_hunt]

Neither did (IMHO) Grateful Dead that you were bringing up (I did see them 8 times in the 80's, and it was always all based on a song structure)

I disagree. The Dead regularly improvised outside of song structures and had a number of single tracks on their official live releases designated as jam or improvs.

[mogrooves]

the drumming was not swinging the beat out enough for it to really have "jazz" as the defining description.

It don't mean a thing...er...to me, but there are A LOT of self-identified jazz drummers who will take issue with this--not to mention bassists, who haven't "walked" in ages--arguing for a more capacious understanding of "swinging."

[yoyiceu]

Polish band SBB...

[yoyiceu]

Also, there was a time when this was considered the apex of rock improvisation, and it still sounds great to my ears.

[yoyiceu]

Lots of krautrock is also based in improvisation, I think: Cosmic Jokers, early Popol Vuh, Ash Ra Tempel, Guru Guru, and...

[Poisoned Youth]

Trane,

Did they do FULL improvisations (not jams in a structure, but full on improvisations) that were RELEASED on official albums back in the day?

Zep didn't do full on improvs. Definitely not. I know their catalog well enough to state that.
QMS jammed around structure, unless you know albums I don't (and iirc, Happy Trails is all jamming around structure).

That's not what Cozy is asking.

Yeppers.

For example, the Bone Structure release in the liners it states "all music improvised in real time". This is similar to what I understand about Supersilent (which was a good example). My understanding is they don't talk about anything with each other that they want to do before the recording session, they walk in, and just 'go'.

This is why "jamming" isn't really the same thing. It's why I wouldn't refer to the majority of jazz-fusion, to which improv plays a role, but not an entirety.

This is pure improvisation I'm talking about (as you know). There's gobs and gobs and gobs of it in the jazz world of course. The there's also a plenty of free electric jazz and jazz-rock as well. And some of the groups mentioned here so far are in the improv space, but the rock content is little to none. Even with AMM, Supersilent, and Bone Structure, the rock quotient is questionable.

It's that rarity factor that makes those Crimson improvs even more special.

[Mascodagama]

Steamboat Switzerland recorded quite a bit of pure improv. Though again it's hard to put it in a "rock" box.

[Poisoned Youth]

The most obvious example I think is Can.

Interesting example since they usually constructed their songs from jams in the studio spliced together if I recall.

[Poisoned Youth]

Kiruna - Terasarus should appeal to anyone who liked the improv style of '73-74 Crimson.

Is that name right? I did a search and nothing came up.

[Poisoned Youth]

The Cryptogramophone label put out a bunch of good stuff in this vein. I particularly like the three albums by Gregg Bendian's Interzone.

I don't think the Interzone albums were on CG, but love that label and own just about every release. Some of my faves include Liebig - Pomegranate, the Alex Cline releases, the Jeff Gauthier releases, Scot Ray, Scott Amendola, Nels Cline, Alan Pasqua - Antisocial Club...okay, just about the whole damn label.

[Poisoned Youth]

I don't know about The Mars Volta, but I'm pretty sure Omar Rodriguez-Lopez puts whole-track improvs on his albums. I mean, how else to keep releasing 5 albums a year, or whatever he was doing for awhile?

I think there are some of his albums that cross over into the guitar/ambience/noise vein, but a lot of that solo work is comprised of composed tracks, and he was just prolific about it.

[Mascodagama]

I don't think the Interzone albums were on CG, but love that label and own just about every release. Some of my faves include Liebig - Pomegranate, the Alex Cline releases, the Jeff Gauthier releases, Scot Ray, Scott Amendola, Nels Cline, Alan Pasqua - Antisocial Club...okay, just about the whole damn label.

You're quite right, the Interzone albums are on Atavistic. Same musicians, same scene, I got confused.

I agree that Cryptogramophone was a great label. I don't think it's still active, as Jeff Gauthier who basically ran it has apparently moved on to other things. Pity.