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Thread: Ray W. singles out Mike R. for 'disbanding' Genesis!

  1. #51
    NEARfest Officer Emeritus Nearfest2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zumacraig View Post
    He does seem very pretentious. Ironically, most of his music is just chord progressions with fairly conventional riffs. It was the whole band that made it great. Also, I've read that Mike and Tony had all the music written for CAS and Ray was in another room doing vocals. There was basically no interaction. Grain of salt.
    I read a similar thing. A lot of the music was written when Ray was brought in. There isn't a lot of fully collaborated material on CAS from what I understand and that's just another reason Ray Wilson was hoping for a follow-up album.

    Quote Originally Posted by aith01 View Post
    Whether you like him or not, no one puts chords and melodies together the way Tony Banks does.

    Love him as a musician and a writer for Genesis, but I'm less and less enamoured by him each time I see or read an interview with him.
    Chad

  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Nearfest2 View Post
    Love him as a musician and a writer for Genesis, but I'm less and less enamoured by him each time I see or read an interview with him.
    Fair enough, but he's hardly unique in that regard.

    The list of musicians whose musical work is enjoyed, while their personalities are not, would probably be rather long. Cognitive dissonance and all that.

    That said, the earlier assertion that his music is "just" chords and riffs is dismissive bordering on ignorant. But these days it seems we can't have a Genesis thread that doesn't turn into a series of escalating anti-Banks rants. It's really quite disheartening, because I would like to actually discuss Genesis sometimes without all that noise. They are still my favorite band after all.

  3. #53
    Member 2steves's Avatar
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    I wish there were a happy medium for my two fav groups between not letting anyone in and being a snob about it---and not wanting to bring back greatness ---Hackett---like Genesis----or letting anyone in and not wanting to bring greatness back---Moraz---and slowly going down the drain like Yes.

    And it's not in anyone's imagination that the two private school boy snobs Mike and Tony---want to discard whatever they want to discard as it pertains to Genesis.

  4. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by aith01 View Post

    That said, the earlier assertion that his music is "just" chords and riffs is dismissive bordering on ignorant.
    Ok... what about that was dismissive or ignorant? Isn't that pretty much what he does?

  5. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Facelift View Post
    Ok... what about that was dismissive or ignorant? Isn't that pretty much what he does?
    No, it's not. That's like saying that Peter Gabriel's music is just tribal rhythms and riffs.

  6. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Nearfest2 View Post
    I read a similar thing. A lot of the music was written when Ray was brought in. There isn't a lot of fully collaborated material on CAS from what I understand and that's just another reason Ray Wilson was hoping for a follow-up album.
    It's true that most of the music was written (not recorded) before Ray came aboard. But the three of them still interacted during the recording process, and Ray did contribute some music -- just not a whole lot of it.

  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by aith01 View Post
    No, it's not. That's like saying that Peter Gabriel's music is just tribal rhythms and riffs.
    I think it was wholly accurate.

  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Facelift View Post
    I think it was wholly accurate.
    We'll have to agree to disagree I suppose.

  9. #59
    Member Gizmotron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valen View Post
    Rubbish! The record-buying public were responsible for the decline in sales - they elected not to buy it.
    Certainly this is true on the surface. But I feel that the documented lack of support by the label had a huge amount to do with the poor sales of the album and especially, the tour.

    Anecdotal example: I have been a huge Genesis fan since 1975. For most of that time, I consistently went to great lengths (tracking down the English music papers, getting R. Stone and Creem, calling DJs, networking with other like-minded, rabid fans) to stay abreast of any Genesis news. But the existence of C.A.S. and the (then) upcoming tour was unknown to me. One cannot buy an album or attend a concert if one has no awareness of wither. Eventually I stumbled onto it on my weekly record store (remember them?) visits.

    Whoever's fault it was, the record and tour received no real publicity; the record was not pushed onto radio stations. One cannot "elect" to act or not act if one does not know there IS an election.

  10. #60
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    Make a someone ruined something noise here! (Sorry Frank)

  11. #61
    I need to give CAS a good listen. I'm sure there's some interesting stuff there. Would also like to hear some of the live stuff from that era.

    @aith01
    Thanks for the critique. It's given me an opportunity to attempt at a clearer explanation of my point. Every musician puts chords and notes together. The notes are the raw materials. I could play some chords and it would sound boring. Magically(?), Banks plays the same chords and it's one of the greatest sounds in the world!. The musical x-factor. Richard Wright had it too. Hell, I could listen to Banks play the progression of Follow You forever and be happy. His restraint, as well as the band's, was one of their strengths. I seem to remember him saying in the '11 box interviews that Invisible Touch, for example, was built just around that one riff. To turn that into a song is incredible. I just love the idea of them sitting in a room and just letting the ideas flow. So cool. I think of the Abacab video.

    Also, pretention is not really a put down. To us, Genesis is quite important, to a lot of other folks, they were a pop band....LOL! Specifically, I was thinking of his comments on Trespass in said dvd. I can see his critique in terms of hindsight, but to many that's a masterpiece.

    BTW, Gabriel does use tribal rhythms, but damn nobody can do it like him. Passion is one of my favorite albums.

    Rock on!

  12. #62
    Member dgtlman's Avatar
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    CAS sucked! I'm sorry but it did. Worst album they ever did. I have a DVD from that tour & it just does nothing for me. It's not Ray's fault however, just very poor songwriting. When Phil bailed on the band I think the majority of the fan base did too. Thus, the US leg of the tour never materialized, due to poor sales. IMO, if Genesis had taken a break when Phil left & then come back several years later with more well thought out material, perhaps a return to a more proggier style, sales probably would have returned to previous levels.

  13. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by zumacraig View Post
    I need to give CAS a good listen. I'm sure there's some interesting stuff there. Would also like to hear some of the live stuff from that era.

    @aith01
    Thanks for the critique. It's given me an opportunity to attempt at a clearer explanation of my point. Every musician puts chords and notes together. The notes are the raw materials. I could play some chords and it would sound boring. Magically(?), Banks plays the same chords and it's one of the greatest sounds in the world!. The musical x-factor. Richard Wright had it too. Hell, I could listen to Banks play the progression of Follow You forever and be happy. His restraint, as well as the band's, was one of their strengths. I seem to remember him saying in the '11 box interviews that Invisible Touch, for example, was built just around that one riff. To turn that into a song is incredible. I just love the idea of them sitting in a room and just letting the ideas flow. So cool. I think of the Abacab video.
    Thanks for the clarification, zumacraig. I was unnecessarily harsh in what I said earlier; I'm sorry about that. What you're saying makes perfect sense, and actually I agree with you! Banks' ability to show restraint (perhaps one of the most restrained/tasteful of the first generation prog keyboardists) and still sound "powerful" is one of the reasons why I love his music.


    Quote Originally Posted by zumacraig View Post
    Also, pretention is not really a put down. To us, Genesis is quite important, to a lot of other folks, they were a pop band....LOL! Specifically, I was thinking of his comments on Trespass in said dvd. I can see his critique in terms of hindsight, but to many that's a masterpiece.
    One thing that I believe gets overlooked by some is that Tony Banks is just as critical (if not more so) of his own work in Genesis as he is of the rest of the band. Having a hand in the making of those albums means he is a lot closer to it than we are, and there are probably things he/they did musically that he regrets now or would like to go back and change -- but can't. It's human nature. But to some of us, a masterpiece like Trespass is near-perfect and we don't want to hear the musicians who made it talking badly of it.

    What really annoys me is the persistent, trollish name-calling some members never miss a chance to take part in whenever Tony/Mike/Phil come up in conversation (Hackett, it seems, can do no wrong -- and don't get me wrong, I love Hackett and would love to see him reunite with Genesis; but some folks have a serious axe to grind when it comes to that). It gets old. But, that's why we have the "Ignore List".


    Quote Originally Posted by zumacraig View Post
    BTW, Gabriel does use tribal rhythms, but damn nobody can do it like him.
    Absolutely!

  14. #64
    Member Digital_Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    These figures are illuminating. It shows that the much of the 70s stuff has indeed sold quite a bit over time, and doubtless has done much more business since as the date given for the 70s albums is over 25 years ago. Certification is often way out of date.

    They don't seem to keep track closely of bands or albums after they become popular. I think they just forget about certain bands at some point. Then again at some point in the not too distance past it became common for people to figure out how to obtain albums without buying them and that hurt album sales.

  15. #65
    When CAS came out Genesis had already lost a large part of the audience who bought Invisible Touch and We Can't Dance.
    Times change, people change, musical tastes change even more, so their decline in sales in that period wasn't really something strange in my opinion.
    Nobody can prove it, but i believe if Collins hadn't left, CAS would have performed more or less the same.
    It would have been a totally different album for sure, with different songs and sounds, but i don't believe it would have made better in the charts. Nor would it have been a better album.
    It went that way... patience.
    The only thing that leaves a bad taste in my mouth is that the best songs from the CAS sessions in my opinion are the 3 b-sides from the Not About Us single, which were the last things they did, and to which Ray Wilson finally made a contribution.
    Maybe a second album would have been more focused and solid if they just had a go at it.

  16. #66
    @aith01

    Good point about Banks' critical view. The artist does have a totally different view than us and he has been fairly critical of himself. In the good way where he's just growing as an artist. As far as the Genesis trolls go, right ignore. How can you say anything about Banks. He has such great hair! I think the reason they worked so well together is that they each brought an element that, when put together, made amazing art. Phil was/is a mater at simple, yet totally memorable melodies. Also an amazing drummer...one of the few that you can recognize when you hear him (like Bonham). Then Mike always had those pastoral passages, riffs or a 'just right' bass line.

    FWIW, any thoughts on We Can't Dance? The singles were played ad nausaem on the radio back then. I think Fading Lights is classic. Love the live version where Phil goes back to the drums for the long solo. Dream While You Sleep is another good one.

    Incidentally,

  17. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by peterpyser View Post
    When CAS came out Genesis had already lost a large part of the audience who bought Invisible Touch and We Can't Dance.
    What is this statement based on?



    Quote Originally Posted by peterpyser View Post
    Times change, people change, musical tastes change even more, so their decline in sales in that period wasn't really something strange in my opinion.
    Nobody can prove it, but i believe if Collins hadn't left, CAS would have performed more or less the same.
    I cannot agree with this at all. If Collins was on the album, the album would in all likelihood have had at least one hit. CAS had no hits. Hits make albums sell. Therefore, it is inevitable that the album would have sold significantly more if Collins had been in the band. I agree that it would probably not have sold as much as We Can't Dance, but who knows? Maybe it would have.



    Quote Originally Posted by peterpyser View Post
    It would have been a totally different album for sure, with different songs and sounds, but i don't believe it would have made better in the charts.
    WCD was released into a musical climate in both the UK and (especially) the US that would not have seemed to very friendly to it at all (it was released two months after Nevermind) but it still sold 10 million copies. I would not say that 1997 was any worse a time for a Genesis album. It might have been an even better time, what with synths getting back into popular music and the prog revival getting underway.

    Quote Originally Posted by peterpyser View Post
    Nor would it have been a better album.
    Well, that's just speculation. And it partially depends on what your opinion of CAS is. I think that CAS is quite the turd, and a contender for the band's worst album, so it's hard for me to imagine that a Collins Genesis could possibly have done any worse.

  18. #68
    Member Digital_Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peterpyser View Post
    When CAS came out Genesis had already lost a large part of the audience who bought Invisible Touch and We Can't Dance.
    Times change, people change, musical tastes change even more, so their decline in sales in that period wasn't really something strange in my opinion.
    Nobody can prove it, but i believe if Collins hadn't left, CAS would have performed more or less the same.
    It would have been a totally different album for sure, with different songs and sounds, but i don't believe it would have made better in the charts. Nor would it have been a better album.
    It went that way... patience.
    The only thing that leaves a bad taste in my mouth is that the best songs from the CAS sessions in my opinion are the 3 b-sides from the Not About Us single, which were the last things they did, and to which Ray Wilson finally made a contribution.
    Maybe a second album would have been more focused and solid if they just had a go at it.
    I partly disagree. Yes times change and people change but if Collins would have stayed on I think sales would have been much better as long as there still were some songs from it on the radio. I do remember hearing "Congo" but it was the only song on the album and it wasn't much of a hit. Aside from that most people who heard that(including casual fans who bought the two previous albums in droves)probably didn't recognize it as Genesis and sales suffered as a result.

    To make a comparison to the one band who is probably compared to Genesis the most, after Yes put out Union most fans lost interest(all but the most hardcore it seems)and since Talk had a different lineup than Union(and ABWH for that matter for the most part)Talk didn't sell as well. There is the factor that there was the growing grunge and alternative movement and Yes(as well as Genesis)were seen as dinosaurs at that point even more than before. Talk actually charted higher than CAS actually. Yes were still recognizable as Yes where as Genesis now had a vocalist that only the most hardcore fans(those who really followed them)knew about. Most people were like who is this guy? I suppose the same could have been said for the Drama album for Yes not to mention the last two Yes albums.

  19. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Facelift View Post


    WCD was released into a musical climate in both the UK and (especially) the US that would not have seemed to very friendly to it at all (it was released two months after Nevermind) but it still sold 10 million copies. I would not say that 1997 was any worse a time for a Genesis album. It might have been an even better time, what with synths getting back into popular music and the prog revival getting underway.
    Genesis still had hits on the radio before Nirvana and soon like bands changed everything on the radio. Alternative and rap still dominated in 1997. I guess there was Hootie and the Blowfish and Seal...

  20. #70
    Collins was a great arranger and editor for the band in the latter days he was with Genesis. If Phil was in the band for Calling All Stations, who knows how sales would have been. But some of the tracks that seemed to go on aimlessly would have probably been tightened up with Phil's influence. That said, it is interesting some of the better tracks from that era were left off the album, songs that Ray had more involvement in developing. Not unusual however, since Genesis had a bad habit of leaving very strong songs off of albums starting in the 70's.

  21. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by yamishogun View Post
    Genesis still had hits on the radio before Nirvana and soon like bands changed everything on the radio. Alternative and rap still dominated in 1997. I guess there was Hootie and the Blowfish and Seal...
    WCD was released in very late 1991. Commercially, it was a 1992 album. 1992 (in the US, anyway) was pretty solidly a year of alternative and grunge, as far as the rock music market (plenty of non-rock was popular too). Genesis was pretty out of place in that environment, and the album sold almost 5 million in the US alone.

  22. #72
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    When CAS was released, I hated it except for 3 or 4 songs. Put it away for years. Listened to it after watching RW on YouTube. I really liked what he did. When I went back to CAS, I warmed quite a bit more to the album, but the problems talked about here like the fade outs still was an issue. Basically, MR killed Genesis by not having the desire to do the work to keep the band going. He admitted it. They needed to make another album and tour smaller places. He was already a zillionaire, so I can see why he didn't want to. End of story. Wish it wasn't but they had given us great music for years.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by zumacraig View Post
    @aith01


    FWIW, any thoughts on We Can't Dance? The singles were played ad nausaem on the radio back then. I think Fading Lights is classic. Love the live version where Phil goes back to the drums for the long solo. Dream While You Sleep is another good one.
    Has some really strong tracks but suffers like a lot of groups where they put too many tracks on the album. Less would have been more in this case.

  24. #74
    Member 2steves's Avatar
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    Genesis popularity was in a direct trajectory to Phil Collins popularity---the templet was a 2 or 3 single hits per album---and some longer pieces that the popular masses didn't give a crap about like Domino---or Driving the last spike---etc.
    When the pop singer---almost as big as Michael Jackson---left Genesis---the only thing to do is do something creative and prog with Hackett and not even try to replicate a "hit" with the horrible Congo. Just do a prog album and leave the pop to others.

  25. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by 2steves View Post
    Just do a prog album and leave the pop to others.
    I doubt they could have done a full prog album. The last six albums had about 10 minutes of prog each on them.

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