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Thread: Ray W. singles out Mike R. for 'disbanding' Genesis!

  1. #26
    I saw the World of Genesis tour - it was very good. At least Ray is still making proggy albums.

    Never been a big Rutherford fan - awful guitar player and comes across as an upper class twit. In a Classic Pop magazine questionnaire he answered the question ' if you hadn't been a musician what would you have been? ' with the answer 'professional polo player'. However, I've liked a lot of M+TM and Smallcreep's Day is an excellent album.

    Just looking at that box set and the liner notes by Jim Yukich are a bit nasty towards Wilson and his vocals so perhaps he does have a point about how history has treated his time in the band..

  2. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    "Did I say a 'good soul?' I meant jackass."

  3. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by everyday View Post
    Never been a big Rutherford fan - awful guitar player and comes across as an upper class twit. In a Classic Pop magazine questionnaire he answered the question ' if you hadn't been a musician what would you have been? ' with the answer 'professional polo player'. However, I've liked a lot of M+TM and Smallcreep's Day is an excellent album.
    Awful? I have to disagree there. After all, it was Mike and Ant who together developed what became the signature pastoral sound of "early Genesis" with their 12-string guitar playing.

    Mike is no virtuoso, but he is far from "awful". His strengths lie more in his songwriting (Smallcreep's Day is a great example of what he brought to the Genesis table) -- his guitar playing is more sparse than Hackett's, much more along the lines of someone like David Gilmour, where the focus is just on a different aspect.

    Can't really comment authoritatively on the "upper class twit" part, but he has never come across like a twit in the interviews I've watched. Seems rather self-deprecating, almost to a fault when he starts criticizing some of that early Genesis material.

  4. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    =

    And I could imagine the Gabriel-era selling consistently well as back catalogue.
    Well, yeah, over the course of time, an album is gonna sell well for an artist who hangs in there and continues to build an audience. One case in point is American Beauty by The Grateful Dead. It didn't necessarily sell very well in 1970, but at some point in the mid or late 80's, it was certified platinum, meaning that over the course of 15 or so years, it managed to sell enough copies for the RIAA to give it that recognition. I believe some of the Rush albums were like that too, 2112 for instance.

    I remember Steve Hackett saying once that when Nursery Cryme came out, it sold poorly, except for in Italy, though it obviously sold better as what he termed an "archive item", I guess meaning that as the fanbase grew, the newer fans (some of them anyway) went back and bought the earlier albums that they had missed out on.

    Here's the question to ask: has any of the Charisma era albums ever been out of print? Have they always sold steadily enough that they've stayed available continuously without the need to hunt through second hand shops and cut out bins? If that's the case, then surely I would guess most of the Gabriel era albums have sold better than Calling All Stations, over time.

    At any rate, no matter how you count it, whether you're talking about initial sales, or sales over the course of...what's it been, almost 20 years since Calling All Stations came out? No matter how you manipulate the numbers, I don't see how Calling All Stations could be the fourth biggest selling Genesis album.

  5. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    ^Wilson said Banks was the one member who went over to see him where he lived after the split, to check up on him. Banks does tend to get an undeserved bad rap.



    It can't possibly be their fourth best selling when it charted lower in the US than anything they'd done in nearly 25 years.
    Chart numbers are relative. CAS was released at/near the recording industry's high water mark for annual album sales. Being number 25 in 1997 was probably better than being no. 5 today. I'm not sure what it meant to be #54 (where CAS reached on the US charts) but I'm sure it was a lot better than being 54 today.

    That said, I'd be surprised if CAS was better than Genesis' 6th or 7th best-selling album (especially if the live albums count) There's no way it outsold Duke, Abacab, eponymous, Invisible Touch or We Cant' Dance, and I kind of doubt that it outsold either The Way We Walk (shorts) or Three Sides Live.

    But even if he's right and it somehow is the 4th biggest selling album... when you're the singer and the album you're on sells only 1/5 of the previous album that you weren't on, it means that something went horribly, horribly wrong, and that something is probably you. And that would be the case even if it was your 2nd best-selling album.
    Last edited by Facelift; 06-07-2016 at 03:16 PM.

  6. #31
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    ^I'm aware of the difference in sales between now and 1997- these days on a bad sales week, you can sell a few thousand in a week and end up in the UK chart. But what about 1997 compared with the 20 years-plus before, when The Lamb charted?

    I don't blame Wilson for one minute for what went wrong on CAS. I can see why he was chosen, he did put in some strong vocals. The problems lay more with the material and the musical execution. I can salvage some good songs from it, so it's not a Queen and Paul Rodgers, Cosmos Rocks-style write off, but it remains my least favourite and least played of their albums.

  7. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    I don't blame Wilson for one minute for what went wrong on CAS. I can see why he was chosen, he did put in some strong vocals. The problems lay more with the material and the musical execution.
    I was talking about the weak album sales, not what one thinks about the quality of the music. I think it's hard to make the argument that Ray Wilson replacing Phil Collins did not have a lot to do with the relatively poor sales of the album.

  8. #33
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    ^Yes, he wasn't a big enough name.

    I have a feeling, though, that a Collins-led Genesis album may have also underperformed then. Collins' Dance Into The Light from the same period did quite badly. Collins had fallen from favour at that time.

  9. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    ^Yes, he wasn't a big enough name.

    I have a feeling, though, that a Collins-led Genesis album may have also underperformed then. Collins' Dance Into The Light from the same period did quite badly. Collins had fallen from favour at that time.
    I absolutely agree that if Collins was on the album, that the album would probably have been a commercial flop as well - though I think it still would have sold substantially more than CAS ultimately did. It makes a big difference if there's a hit. If Collins was on it, there would have been at least one hit - if only because Genesis with Collins was pretty good at writing them. As it was, they released Congo (a dreadful song, IMO) as the single for CAS and it barely moved the needle. And then that was it.

  10. #35
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    ^Yes. There simply was not one song on it that would have been a sell-through hit which then got people buying the album. 'Congo' is a dud, IMHO, and has one of the worst fade-outs in the history of rock.

    I was happy that the 2007 tour and the positive reception given to the Gabriel box in 2008 (very strong reviews from AllMusic and Rolling Stone's David Fricke) really improved their standing, after the way they kind of faded from view.

  11. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Facelift View Post
    I absolutely agree that if Collins was on the album, that the album would probably have been a commercial flop as well - though I think it still would have sold substantially more than CAS ultimately did. It makes a big difference if there's a hit. If Collins was on it, there would have been at least one hit - if only because Genesis with Collins was pretty good at writing them. As it was, they released Congo (a dreadful song, IMO) as the single for CAS and it barely moved the needle. And then that was it.
    There was a huge difference between music played on the radio between 1991 (Nevermind was released a few weeks before We Can't Dance) and 1997 when CAS was released. Having Phil Collins on it would have probably tripled sales to 3 million instead of around 1 million that it sold. 2 to 3 million would only be a commercial flop for Genesis.

  12. #37
    Member DrGoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    "I believe Calling All Stations was the fourth best-selling album of their history"

    He's the only one who believes that.
    If you look only at Wikipedia pages, then it's a claim that's easy to wikiwikisubstanitate. Only the most recent four studio albums are shown as having certifications for album sales. CAS is therefore right in there at number four (but still bereft of a US certification). However, if you look up album certifications for the largest market (that would be the US) for Gold and PLatinum awards, you might find something different:

    http://www.riaa.com/gold-platinum/?t...ard&ar=genesis

  13. #38
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    What is Visible Touch?

  14. #39
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    Maybe I am remembering wrong as it has been a while since I read his book, but didn’t Rutherford say pretty much the same thing in the book regarding the end of the band?

  15. #40
    Studmuffin Scott Bails's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Facelift View Post
    But even if he's right and it somehow is the 4th biggest selling album... when you're the singer and the album you're on sells only 1/5 of the previous album that you weren't on, it means that something went horribly, horribly wrong, and that something is probably you. And that would be the case even if it was your 2nd best-selling album.
    Calling All Stations has many flaws, but none of them are Ray Wilson's fault.
    Music isn't about chops, or even about talent - it's about sound and the way that sound communicates to people. Mike Keneally

  16. #41
    Member Digital_Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Bails View Post
    Calling All Stations has many flaws, but none of them are Ray Wilson's fault.

    Agreed. I actually think it's probably one of the most under-rated albums in their catalog though and it also has a more consistent prog sound than any album since Duke or ATTWT(imo). It's hard to believe it's been almost twenty years since it came out though.

    I remember when I saw Genesis in 2007 this album was playing over the sound system and I really got the feeling that I was maybe one of the very few people there who recognized it.

  17. #42
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    What is Visible Touch?
    It's a patented technique where you get goosed, but it's not a surprise.

  18. #43
    I love CAS. One of my top 5 Genesis albums. Very personal on many levels. Excellent music IMO.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrGoon View Post
    If you look only at Wikipedia pages, then it's a claim that's easy to wikiwikisubstanitate. Only the most recent four studio albums are shown as having certifications for album sales. CAS is therefore right in there at number four (but still bereft of a US certification). However, if you look up album certifications for the largest market (that would be the US) for Gold and PLatinum awards, you might find something different:

    http://www.riaa.com/gold-platinum/?t...ard&ar=genesis
    These figures are illuminating. It shows that the much of the 70s stuff has indeed sold quite a bit over time, and doubtless has done much more business since as the date given for the 70s albums is over 25 years ago. Certification is often way out of date.

  20. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Bails View Post
    Calling All Stations has many flaws, but none of them are Ray Wilson's fault.
    What I said was that Ray Wilson was largely responsible for the steep decline in sales, and he absolutely was.

  21. #46
    Member 2steves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    "I believe Calling All Stations was the fourth best-selling album of their history"

    He's the only one who believes that.
    Lol I thought the same thing.
    I think it was a very bone headed idea to think that Genesis would have any kind of big time popularity without Phil. Phil made Genesis as popular as it became.
    But maybe they thought they were Genesis and could carry on---it's a bad idea for Yes or them.
    Mike is only interested in $ and popularity at this point. Banks has enough money and if he wanted to do an album with Hackett of real prog that would be a nice thing to do in his old age. And although I like some of CAS---about a third. It doesn't really sound like Genesis to me---Wilson is just ok.

  22. #47
    Member viukkis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Facelift View Post
    What I said was that Ray Wilson was largely responsible for the steep decline in sales, and he absolutely was.
    I think this is one of those times when it is appropriate to say that it was actually Phil Collins' fault. Ray Wilson just happened to be the guy who got the honour to step into a sinking ship.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Facelift View Post
    What I said was that Ray Wilson was largely responsible for the steep decline in sales, and he absolutely was.
    Rubbish! The record-buying public were responsible for the decline in sales - they elected not to buy it.

  24. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Nearfest2 View Post
    Tony Banks does seem to act like a child at times regarding the band's history. He's a bit of a brat.
    He does seem very pretentious. Ironically, most of his music is just chord progressions with fairly conventional riffs. It was the whole band that made it great. Also, I've read that Mike and Tony had all the music written for CAS and Ray was in another room doing vocals. There was basically no interaction. Grain of salt.

  25. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by zumacraig View Post
    He does seem very pretentious. Ironically, most of his music is just chord progressions with fairly conventional riffs. It was the whole band that made it great.
    Whether you like him or not, no one puts chords and melodies together the way Tony Banks does.


    Quote Originally Posted by zumacraig View Post
    Also, I've read that Mike and Tony had all the music written for CAS and Ray was in another room doing vocals. There was basically no interaction. Grain of salt.
    Not true.

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