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Thread: Watching our heroes through the lens of mortality

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by rickawakeman View Post
    ^^^^
    What he said. I do admit to a propensity for fandoms in general as I was attending comic conventions in NYC from age 11, so as a "fanatic" my passions tend to run high. If I had met many of the artists you named above in my youth, I think I would have plotzed. Finally met Wakeman, have met Gabriel and Hackett, Wetton, Morse, Howe and Portnoy, Stolt, still a thrill for this "fan".
    And there is nothing wrong with that. I was certainly in that fanboy mode at that age, as well. Heck, probably into my college years. As an adult, much less so, but I will admit I do still enjoy when I get the chance to meet people who have produced music or art that I love. Just not quite in the fanboy gushing mode like when I was younger. They are still my heroes, even if that doesn't mean the same thing to me now as it did 30 years ago.

  2. #27
    Member Plasmatopia's Avatar
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    Hero: "a person, typically a man, who is admired or idealized for courage, outstanding achievements, or noble qualities."

    Without getting into a huge debate about what constitutes "outstanding achievements" (since I think we'll all have a different idea about what that is) I think we're operating well within the definition here.
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  3. #28
    Member rickawakeman's Avatar
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    It may be the "idealized" part some have difficulties with, but having just watched ELP Live in Montreal '77 (saw that tour with orchestra in Aug. '77 at MSG in NYC), it's pretty apparent that some artists were seeking adulation and idealization, presenting themselves as somehow larger than life. I know they seemed that way to me back in the day.

  4. #29
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    That's probably true, Rick. Also, whether they were seeking it or not, we probably idealize their music. In some ways certain artists' music is an ideal representation of what music is or at least what we individually would like it to be. I have no idea why that would be a bad thing (well, maybe if it prevented us from liking new things...).
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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plasmatopia View Post
    That's probably true, Rick. Also, whether they were seeking it or not, we probably idealize their music. In some ways certain artists' music is an ideal representation of what music is or at least what we individually would like it to be. I have no idea why that would be a bad thing (well, maybe if it prevented us from liking new things...).
    IMO, I'm happy I was in my teenage/20s more fanboyish years at a time when there was no such thing as the internet or message boards (or social media). I was frequently unaware of how my idols got along or didn't and that was actually a great way to go as a younger fan. I based my fandom on only the music and whatever persona they wanted to show via interviews or documentaries. Yes, some word of people not getting along or being divas or just general discord got out, but it usually came in the form of a story printed down the road and if you didn't work pretty hard you didn't always know the real, human side of these folks putting out this product you loved. I wouldn't trade the information available now via all the different types of media and message boards, but I'm kind of glad I got to have the years without so much dissection along with this time. As an older guy now, it doesn't bother me that the folks whose music I love so much aren't all best friends and aren't all great people. That is called simply being people. But, as a kid, it was kind of cool to have these myths for a period of time.

  6. #31
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mstove View Post
    If everyone else in a discussion understands the use of a term except for you, perhaps you should re-think whether or not they are all wrong and you are right.
    Seriously? There's no such thing as common understanding around here. People reply in threads according to what they'd like the thread to be, not common understanding. Just look at the recent "Side Long" thread, or practically any list thread for that matter. This place is Cat Herding Central. Hell, there's not even any common understanding around the "What is Progressive Rock?" question. Given the reply from the thread starter in post #8, I don't think I misunderstood at all. And if you think there isn't real hero worship on this site, you haven't opened any Yes threads. Some folks around here hold them in godlike reverence.

    Now, admittedly, I am a cynic, but I'd maintain that a cynic is just a realist who's seen a lot of shit. That may be why I would see this very differently from you guys. If someone asked me if I had any heroes, I'd probably say "Yeah, one. My Dad." That people our age hold musicians in such high esteem strikes me as a little odd, sorry. As for some common usage of the word hero that's roughly equivalent to "someone I admire," I don't hear it, apart from the example that I stated earlier. (And full disclosure: I think that is a cheapening of the word.) It's not a word I hear used a great deal in common parlance, period, because it denotes someone who has done something exceptional, usually for the benefit of others more than themselves.

    Anyway, I doubt we'll agree, but mine's a different perspective.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by rickawakeman View Post
    it's pretty apparent that some artists were seeking adulation and idealization, presenting themselves as somehow larger than life. I know they seemed that way to me back in the day.
    I wish I could remember the source, but I recall reading or hearing a Record Executive or a Manager say in the late 70s or early 80s that the next marketing angle that they were going to pursue was to try to create a quasi-religious devotion to the artist, as it was believed that that would be the strongest connection between artist and fans. I can't say that it was ever acted on, but apparently it was an idea that was bandied about, at least.

  8. #33
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    Seriously? There's no such thing as common understanding around here. People reply in threads according to what they'd like the thread to be, not common understanding. Just look at the recent "Side Long" thread, or practically any list thread for that matter. This place is Cat Herding Central. Hell, there's not even any common understanding around the "What is Progressive Rock?" question. Given the reply from the thread starter in post #8, I don't think I misunderstood at all. And if you think there isn't real hero worship on this site, you haven't opened any Yes threads. Some folks around here hold them in godlike reverence.

    Now, admittedly, I am a cynic, but I'd maintain that a cynic is just a realist who's seen a lot of shit. That may be why I would see this very differently from you guys. If someone asked me if I had any heroes, I'd probably say "Yeah, one. My Dad." That people our age hold musicians in such high esteem strikes me as a little odd, sorry. As for some common usage of the word hero that's roughly equivalent to "someone I admire," I don't hear it, apart from the example that I stated earlier. (And full disclosure: I think that is a cheapening of the word.) It's not a word I hear used a great deal in common parlance, period, because it denotes someone who has done something exceptional, usually for the benefit of others more than themselves.

    Anyway, I doubt we'll agree, but mine's a different perspective.
    Don't you hear people refer to sports "heroes" very commonly? I don't think musicians should be held in any less esteem than professional athletes. My point is just that term is used a lot for people who aren't your dad or a fireman. It's not "weird" that its being used in this context too.

  9. #34
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    Don't you hear people refer to sports "heroes" very commonly? I don't think musicians should be held in any less esteem than professional athletes. My point is just that term is used a lot for people who aren't your dad or a fireman. It's not "weird" that its being used in this context too.
    Yes, and I already mentioned it in post #21. However, "Sports Heroes" are only heroes to our kids, and it's used in that context. ("Role Model" being the other widely used term.) We've got a basketball team with a real shot to win the title this year. The job I'm working at the moment affords me plenty of time to listen to the local Sports Talk Radio channel. Not once have I heard the Cavaliers referred to as "heroes" or "our Heroes," etc. If I was to hear it, I guarantee it'll be in the context of "heroes to our children," not the adults.

    You can use the term to refer to your favorite bands to your heart's content, and you'll get plenty of support here. They won't think it's weird. I will, but...you'll survive.

  10. #35
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    Heroes? The only heroes I've ever met were in uniform.

  11. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    Yes, and I already mentioned it in post #21. However, "Sports Heroes" are only heroes to our kids, and it's used in that context. ("Role Model" being the other widely used term.)
    I doubt this. I think grown-ups also have their sports heroes. Otherwise they wouldn't let the face or name of their hero been tatoed somewhere on their body.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    As for some common usage of the word hero that's roughly equivalent to "someone I admire," I don't hear it, apart from the example that I stated earlier. (And full disclosure: I think that is a cheapening of the word.) It's not a word I hear used a great deal in common parlance, period, because it denotes someone who has done something exceptional, usually for the benefit of others more than themselves.
    Your view on the word points out at least one thing: we do apparently have different impressions of what some words mean. That happens.

    Just curious - why is your father your hero?

    I think here in this thread we can at least recognize that the context is "musical heroes". Your father can definitely be a hero to you, but is he a hero in any musical-related sense?

    As far as common parlance...I'd have to say that I have most often in recent years heard the word used to refer to people who have done nothing more exceptional than sign up and show up for something. It was cheapened long before this thread began. But that's another discussion.
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  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rarebird View Post
    I doubt this. I think grown-ups also have their sports heroes. Otherwise they wouldn't let the face or name of their hero been tatoed somewhere on their body.
    Haven't seen that. Far more likely to see the team name or logo tattooed on someone, especially in this day of widespread player movement. In any case, people who would get a tattoo of a player's face or name have to be a tiny number, and exceptions by definition are not rules. If you said that nothing can be said to be true if you can find an exception to it, then we couldn't make firm statements about anything. Not even gravity.

  14. #39
    Member rickawakeman's Avatar
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  15. #40
    It isn't at all uncommon to talk about "heroes" as people you have looked up to, usually in an area of your interest. The M.I.T. biologist who has been working on health pills was asked who his heroes were, and he said Galileo because of his emphasis on experimentation when that wasn't common way back when. And Galileo worked under the heat of the Catholic Church. So the scientist isn't saying that he idolizes Galileo even by saying he was an intellectual hero. Einstein's heroes were Faraday and Maxwell and had their pictures in his office as inspiration.

  16. #41
    Member rickawakeman's Avatar
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    No More Heroes
    The Stranglers

    Whatever happened to Leon Trotsky?
    He got an ice pick
    That made his ears burn
    Whatever happened to dear old Lenny?
    The great Elmyra,
    And Sancho Panza?
    Whatever happened to the heroes?
    Whatever happened to the heroes?
    Whatever happened to all the heroes?
    All the Shakespearoes?
    They watched their Rome burn
    Whatever happened to the heroes?
    Whatever happened to the heroes?
    No more heroes any more
    No more heroes any more
    Whatever happened to all the heroes?
    All the Shakespearoes?
    They watched their Rome burn
    Whatever happened to the heroes?
    Whatever happened to the heroes?
    No more heroes any more
    No more heroes any more
    No more heroes any more
    No more heroes any more

  17. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    People reply in threads according to what they'd like the thread to be, not common understanding.
    No, some people do that. And those people for the most part do it to set up and knock down straw men, and win arguments that no one is having with them in the first place.

    Sorry, just and observation from someone who's been reading but not participating in this discussion.

  18. #43
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamesmanzi View Post
    No, some people do that. And those people for the most part do it to set up and knock down straw men, and win arguments that no one is having with them in the first place.

    Sorry, just and observation from someone who's been reading but not participating in this discussion.
    The evidence is against you, as noted above.

  19. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    The evidence is against you, as noted above.
    I don't get the impression that you've ever been wrong about anything, so I'll concede. Well played.

  20. #45
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamesmanzi View Post
    I don't get the impression that you've ever been wrong about anything, so I'll concede. Well played.
    You can always put me on ignore. Makes no difference to me.

  21. #46
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterG View Post
    Heroes? The only heroes I've ever met were in uniform.
    What kind of uniform?

  22. #47
    Member rickawakeman's Avatar
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    Cape and curry.

  23. #48
    Member Plasmatopia's Avatar
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    Leather.
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  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plasmatopia View Post
    Your view on the word points out at least one thing: we do apparently have different impressions of what some words mean. That happens.
    Not interested in carrying this out ad infinitum, but I couldn't format replies properly on my phone , so didn't reply earlier, and you deserve the respect of a reply. To your comment- Yeah, that seems to be the case. But even with the cheapened version of the word now in vogue with the media, I don't think it's an approaching emotionally neutral word such as (artist I) "like."

    Quote Originally Posted by Plasmatopia View Post
    Just curious - why is your father your hero?
    Consistency and character. Never met another like him. Also, he influenced who I am greatly, just by being an example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Plasmatopia View Post
    I think here in this thread we can at least recognize that the context is "musical heroes". Your father can definitely be a hero to you, but is he a hero in any musical-related sense?
    No, he has some musical talent, but I maintain that "musical heroes" is an oxymoron in a general sense. An exception would be a professional musician's view of the person or persons who were instrumental in making he or she the musician that they are today. I can see that. That's where they live, not just a fandom thing. I would also point out that there's a huge difference between someone I view as a hero personally, and a hero in a more general or universal sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Plasmatopia View Post
    As far as common parlance...I'd have to say that I have most often in recent years heard the word used to refer to people who have done nothing more exceptional than sign up and show up for something. It was cheapened long before this thread began. But that's another discussion.
    You are absolutely right. However, I refuse to give in to the watered down definition just because the media do. The media are far from our best and brightest. But that's another discussion.

  25. #50
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterG View Post
    Heroes? The only heroes I've ever met were in uniform.
    I don't know if you mean military, police, fire department, etc. but I think there are people equally worthy who weren't warriors or first responders, such as scientists who developed cures for diseases, developed antiseptics, etc. Some of those individuals saved far more lives than any single soldier or fireman. Or MLK or Ghandi - people who taught others by example how to effectively defend human rights. The uniform requirement seems simplistic.

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