Black Sabbath - Technical Ecstasy

[grego]

I wholeheartedly disagree.

Harmonically, a song like "Wishing Well" was really in the exact same tradition as "Shock Wave" from NSD. In fact, it arguably pushed that approach even further; cunningly and beautifully weaving its way through a tapestry of moods and Iommi managing to solo through a bunch of changes with modulations that would make many a jazz player blush. There is simply no way that was any decline in level of composition and the harmonic textures were out of this world, IMO. "Die Young" is equally adventurous and has dynamics that only serve to continue in the Sabbath tradition while pushing themselves into a new direction. The title track is an epic masterpiece; and features one of the most brilliant acoustic outros I've ever heard. Iommi quite literally paints images of the subject matter as the guitars slowly fade out.

Nope. It's a classic for good reason.

Wishing Well is nice...once it was my favorite track here.. Harmonic textures, no...I beg your pardon..They sound like Uriah Heep meets Rainbow. Acoustic guitar strumming over hard rocking electric guitars was first used by Heep, no? And didn't he used slide here, - sound like Ken Hensley in chorus...and that heroic tune..I agree H&H is 'classic', but it sounds too polished, at least for me. I appreciate more live sound, like on Mob Rules - and some music on Mob Rules remind me of Led Zeppelin. That's better reminder for me, than Heep. Drumming is better on Mob Rules either.

[grego]

Have you seen this ranking http://http://teamrock.com/feature/2016-05-24/black-sabbath-albums-ranked-from-worst-to-best

[JeffCarney]

Wishing Well is nice...once it was my favorite track here.. Harmonic textures, no...I beg your pardon..They sound like Uriah Heep meets Rainbow. Acoustic guitar strumming over hard rocking electric guitars was first used by Heep, no? And didn't he used slide here, - sound like Ken Hensley in chorus...and that heroic tune..I agree H&H is 'classic', but it sounds too polished, at least for me. I appreciate more live sound, like on Mob Rules - and some music on Mob Rules remind me of Led Zeppelin. That's better reminder for me, than Heep. Drumming is better on Mob Rules either.

No slide guitar on "Wishing Well."

I don't really know what to say to some of these other perceptions. To any extent that Mob Rules sounds a thing like Led Zeppelin, it's only in Vinnie Appice's drumming. While I rate his drumming on MR very highly, he is no Bill Ward. And while Ward changed his approach a bit on H&H to suit the music of the new Sabbath, the drumming on H&H is far more creative and far less stiff than that on MR. Some of what Ward does on H&H is absolutely mind boggling, IMO. For my money, to compare Appice's more straight ahead pounding would not even be a fair fight, but I do think MR features perhaps the best drumming I've heard from Appice. And I do rate him highly.

[grego]

Looks funny, that by only exclusion of H&H, after the first 3 albums, this band degraded rather consequently) Which is too laughable to be true. I thought they progressed from 1st to NSD, - with some divergence, but all in all, it was a clear moving forward, regarding style, skill, writing, arrangements and whatever else. But CR guys think the opposite. Paranoid is great, no question about it. But if Master of Reality - by all means hardly a masterpiece, considered higher, than Vol.4, SBS, Sabotage, TE and NSD, it's good for nothing ranking if you ask me( though you would not))

[JeffCarney]

Looks funny, that by only exclusion of H&H, after the first 3 albums, this band degraded rather consequently) Which is too laughable to be true. I thought they progressed from 1st to NSD, - with some divergence, but all in all, it was a clear moving forward, regarding style, skill, writing, arrangements and whatever else. But CR guys think the opposite. Paranoid is great, no question about it. But if Master of Reality - by all means hardly a masterpiece, considered higher, than Vol.4, SBS, Sabotage, TE and NSD, it's good for nothing ranking if you ask me( though you would not))

I agree completely that they progressed from the debut album to NSD. Where I disagree with you is regarding your perception of H&H. TBH, I find some of your comments about it to be totally bewildering.

I also rate Master of Reality as a stone cold masterpiece that forever changed rock music.

[Rick Robson]

Mob Rules is great in my book.

But overall, there is no way it outdoes H&H.

Both albums SOUND fantastic, IMO. Production-wise, MR sounds more live, loud and raw. Whereas H&H was more polished and lean.

With H&H, the arrangements on songs like the title track, Wishing Well and Die Young are just insanely brilliant. This was Iommi and Dio absolutely entering another stratosphere of heavy rock possibilities.

Agreed, and had they put 'The Sign Of The Southern Cross' on H&H it would have easily been a Top 5 in my book. Well, not so easily, thinking better.

[dropforge]

Mob Rules is great in my book.

But overall, there is no way it outdoes H&H.

Both albums SOUND fantastic, IMO. Production-wise, MR sounds more live, loud and raw. Whereas H&H was more polished and lean.

With H&H, the arrangements on songs like the title track, Wishing Well and Die Young are just insanely brilliant. This was Iommi and Dio absolutely entering another stratosphere of heavy rock possibilities.

It took me many years after preferring H&H to decide MR edged it out for wall-to-wall greatness. If you put 'em together, they sound like a double album, though. "Voodoo" is one of my favorite Sabbtunes. "Sign of the Southern Cross" is nearly as good on anything on H&H. "Falling Off the Edge of the World" is just a rippin' tune. I love both albums, and I agree about "Wishing Well" and "Die Young" (another fave, along with "Neon Knights"), but there's something about MR's energy. If anything, it's a testament to Iommi's guitar prowess and Geezer's writing that these albums have held up far better than Ozzy's Diary and Blizzard (a lot of "meh" to be found on those, IMO).

[JeffCarney]

It took me many years after preferring H&H to decide MR edged it out for wall-to-wall greatness. If you put 'em together, they sound like a double album, though. "Voodoo" is one of my favorite Sabbtunes. "Sign of the Southern Cross" is nearly as good on anything on H&H. "Falling Off the Edge of the World" is just a rippin' tune. I love both albums, and I agree about "Wishing Well" and "Die Young" (another fave, along with "Neon Knights"), but there's something about MR's energy. If anything, it's a testament to Iommi's guitar prowess and Geezer's writing that these albums have held up far better than Ozzy's Diary and Blizzard (a lot of "meh" to be found on those, IMO).

They both are really epic works which have stood the test of time very well. As I mentioned in the 'Sabbath Worst To Best' thread, I've been spinning Mob Rules recently, and it has pretty much knocked me out. Everybody is on fire, the songwriting is for the most part sensational, and I must say that Geezer Butler's bass playing on "Falling Off The Edge Of The World" might just be about the sickest, most insane rock bass playing I've ever heard.

Obviously it's down to taste, but I kind of agree about Ozzy's first two even if there are some fantastic tracks on them. For me, what makes those first two Ozzy solo albums are his vocals; first and foremost. I know a lot of people really dig that band but for me those albums are truly special because of the way Ozzy's vocal melodies came together and the way he sang that material. Overall, I think those first two Sabbath albums with Dio are just more ferocious overall and there is also the Iommi/Butler factor which remains consistent through both. And that factor is difficult to top.

[Trane]

Looks funny, that by only exclusion of H&H, after the first 3 albums, this band degraded rather consequently) Which is too laughable to be true. I thought they progressed from 1st to NSD, - with some divergence, but all in all, it was a clear moving forward, regarding style, skill, writing, arrangements and whatever else. But CR guys think the opposite. Paranoid is great, no question about it. But if Master of Reality - by all means hardly a masterpiece, considered higher, than Vol.4, SBS, Sabotage, TE and NSD, it's good for nothing ranking if you ask me( though you would not))

I'd tend to agree that if you take H&H out, it was a slide downwards, though an irregular (bumpy) one, but the trend was there (but then again that's the case with many/most bands. Of course , there are exception (like U2 and Dire Straits, for ex).
The one "rock genre" exception would be for prog bands, which often didn't tune/perfected their crafts until their third or fourth albums (ITCOTCK is the exception that would confirm this rule... ELP being a super-group and disqualified from the consideration)

Agreed, and had they put 'The Sign Of The Southern Cross' on H&H it would have easily been a Top 5 in my book.

I sais exactly that on the "rate Sab albums thread", with the one exception that H1H is already a top3 with Southern Cross.
This song could be Dio's best moment with Stargazer.

It took me many years after preferring H&H to decide MR edged it out for wall-to-wall greatness. If you put 'em together, they sound like a double album, though. "Voodoo" is one of my favorite Sabbtunes. "Sign of the Southern Cross" is nearly as good on anything on H&H. "Falling Off the Edge of the World" is just a rippin' tune. I love both albums, and I agree about "Wishing Well" and "Die Young" (another fave, along with "Neon Knights"), but there's something about MR's energy. If anything, it's a testament to Iommi's guitar prowess and Geezer's writing that these albums have held up far better than Ozzy's Diary and Blizzard (a lot of "meh" to be found on those, IMO).

Well, the one thing I find that really separates MR and H&H apart is the change of drummer... Even if Ward was not at his best shape during H&H sessions, his jazzy touch brought a usual Sab plus, while Appice Jr's style is too heavy for my tastes (had they taken in Carmine, it would've been a different story). Even the really heavy H&H tracks are jumpy and fun, while the heavy MR are (too) heavyyyyyyyyyyy. IMHO, only Southern Cross has the quality of H&H.

In other words, H&H has its own sound (IMHO), while MR sounds a little like a NWOBHMB album

BTW, if I kept Live Evil , it was mainly because I liked hearing the Sab classics with Dio singing them.... But I haven't heard it since they early or mid 90's....

[PeterG]

Go boil your head.....

[JeffCarney]

Well, the one thing I find that really separates MR and H&H apart is the change of drummer... Even if Ward was not at his best shape during H&H sessions, his jazzy touch brought a usual Sab plus, while Appice Jr's style is too heavy for my tastes (had they taken in Carmine, it would've been a different story). Even the really heavy H&H tracks are jumpy and fun, while the heavy MR are (too) heavyyyyyyyyyyy. IMHO, only Southern Cross has the quality of H&H.

In other words, H&H has its own sound (IMHO), while MR sounds a little like a NWOBHMB album

I really agree with you here. As I think I mentioned in the other thread, Mob Rules is a bit like hearing what a Dio-fronted Sabbath would sound like with John Bonham or Cozy Powell. Great, hard-hitting drum work, but Ward is just on a different planet, IMO. The way he tended to work around Iommi's riffs instead of cutting through them is truly uncanny. He can push and pull music instead of always grooving it (though he can do that as well as just about anybody as well).

Now, granted, I think Ward was asked to use a bit more a of "straight ahead" style on H&H, and his alcoholism was out of control at that time, but he's still not a pounder. He's just a different type of drummer and I know there are people who even regard his work on H&H as pure genius.

Where I disagree is when people compare the Dio-era to NWOBHM. I don't really think Mob Rules came from that scene very much. I suppose they were aware of it, but I think it's known that Dio and Iommi worked their tails off coming up with the material on H&H. And that was in 1979. They then continued in that style on MR. And it was a style very much unique to Sabbath. Martin Birch went for a really powerful, loud production on MR, but I've read that the drum sound he was able to get on H&H was what he was most proud of up to that time. MR sounds amazing, but it maybe loses a little of the intimacy which a studio album can produce. Each is equally impressive for my money, but H&H never sounded good on CD except FINALLY on that Deluxe Edition which came out a few years ago. Before that it was always too bright on CD and didn't hold together like the better vinyl pressings.

[JJ88]

The NWOBHM was healthy, in that the older artists were rejuvenated as well. You had Black Sabbath, Judas Priest, Motorhead and all the Deep Purple offshoots having a very successful period...even though they were not strictly part of the NWOBHM movement themselves, there would have been audience crossover.

I certainly missed Bill Ward on 13, yes. Very unfortunate what has happened there.

[Trane]

I really agree with you here. As I think I mentioned in the other thread, Mob Rules is a bit like hearing what a Dio-fronted Sabbath would sound like with John Bonham or Cozy Powell.

Wow, I think I'm going to have to consult , because you agreeing with me be worrisome to me siffle.gif

Where I disagree is when people compare the Dio-era to NWOBHM. I don't really think Mob Rules came from that scene very much. I suppose they were aware of it, but I think it's known that Dio and Iommi worked their tails off coming up with the material on H&H. And that was in 1979. They then continued in that style on MR. And it was a style very much unique to Sabbath. Martin Birch went for a really powerful, loud production on MR, but I've read that the drum sound he was able to get on H&H was what he was most proud of up to that time. MR sounds amazing, but it maybe loses a little of the intimacy which a studio album can produce. Each is equally impressive for my money, but H&H never sounded good on CD except FINALLY on that Deluxe Edition which came out a few years ago. Before that it was always too bright on CD and didn't hold together like the better vinyl pressings.

I did write "sounds a little like"

[JeffCarney]

I did write "sounds a little like"

Right. And I said "people" because I did not wish to imply that it was specifically directed at you.

I'm just saying that this "Sabbath started to sound like the NWOBHM when Dio joined" idea is something I've heard in recent years, and I think it's revising history a bit. Sabbath went forward with Dio and really did their own thing, IMO. If anything, I think Iommi was more aware of how well Van Halen's style was selling, so you end up with a song like "Walk Away."

[dropforge]

I never associated Sabbath with the NWOBHM.

[Rick Robson]

BTW, if I kept Live Evil , it was mainly because I liked hearing the Sab classics with Dio singing them.... But I haven't heard it since they early or mid 90's....

And I haven't heard it again since just a little moments ago............finally another real bliss listening to them again. And my old thoughts were confirmed one more time:
Live Evil features one of the most groundbreaking Sabbath w/ Dio live excerpts ever: "H&H_The Sign Of The Southern Cross_H&H (Cont.)_Paranoid_H&H (Cont.)" . And if you want to include to it the segue Children Of The Grave it's Ok to me, I think both Iommi and Dio were damn inspired on that track too. Oh and it was actually great listening again to Dio saying ".....our next album would be....finally, a live album from BS" .

[Trane]

I'm just saying that this "Sabbath started to sound like the NWOBHM when Dio joined" idea is something I've heard in recent years, and I think it's revising history a bit. Sabbath went forward with Dio and really did their own thing, IMO. If anything, I think Iommi was more aware of how well Van Halen's style was selling, so you end up with a song like "Walk Away."

OK, my turn to almost agree with you ... I can understand why people say this just like they including Motorhead's Ace Of Spade and Priest's British Steel in the NWOHMB; because they were released when the movement started taking off...

Fuck, I even heard some saying the BOC's Cultusaurus Erectus was part of that movement

[Guitarplyrjvb]

OK, my turn to almost agree with you ... I can understand why people say this just like they including Motorhead's Ace Of Spade and Priest's British Steel in the NWOHMB; because they were released when the movement started taking off...

Fuck, I even heard some saying the BOC's Cultusaurus Erectus was part of that movement

Well, BOC did have Martin Birch at the helm for that one, so maybe they were trying to ride that wave!

[Score2112]

Underrated album, IMO. In particular, You won't change me is an excellent tune. Other favorites - All moving parts, gypsy, rock and roll doctor. I *do* like Never Say Die more, however.

[grego]

BS lost their originality, hiring Dio, who became a plain hard rocker, after Rainbow years. Technical Ecstasy is unique - you'd never hear a guitar like this. And some tracks are very fine - starting with the opener. H&H is commercial stuff. Good album, yet routinish. It never sounded fresh ( have heard this in 1980) Never say Die looks like attempt to make a commercial record, it sounds too toppy, in comparison to TE. H&H was a huge success. That's why it commonly considered a better album.

[mogrooves]

Not that I'll be sorry to see these guys consigned to the dust heap etc., etc., but those who might have a last chance ......

http://www.msn.com/en-us/music/news/...Aoz?li=BBnb7Kz

[JeffCarney]

BS lost their originality, hiring Dio, who became a plain hard rocker

While in many ways I agree with you about the underappreciated Technical Ecstasy, there is nothing remotely unoriginal or "plain" about the Dio-era. To suggest otherwise has no basis in any musical logic, IMO. I can still remember seeing this promotional video for "Die Young" in 1980. It was like nothing I had ever heard or seen. They recreated themselves, moved forward with a huge appeal to a new generation of Sabbath fans when so many of their peers were clinging to a disintegrating fanbase. Truly astonishing both musically and culturally.

Not everyone liked the change, but to suggest it was in any way "standard" hard rock is just being ridiculous.

[dropforge]

All three Dio-Sabbath albums are fucking amazing. That is all.

[JeffCarney]

All three Dio-Sabbath albums are fucking amazing. That is all.

That is all. And that is correct. ;-)

[Big Ears]

Two worrying things at the time, about Technical Ectasy and Never Say Die, were the lack of riffs and that Tony Iommi was beginnnig to multi-track guitar parts. He admitted the former in interviews and did not need the latter as he had a very full sound. My memory of Sabotage was hearing it as a US import, some time before it appeared in the UK, and that it represented a return to consistency (albeit shortlived until Dio joined).