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Thread: How did Frank Zappa view rap and hip hop?

  1. #1
    Member StevegSr's Avatar
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    How did Frank Zappa view rap and hip hop?

    We all know the great mustache hated hippies, but what did FZ think about rap and hip hop?

    Opps! Posted in Prog forum instead of OT. Please move it Mr. Admin.
    Last edited by StevegSr; 04-30-2016 at 02:23 PM.
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    I don't know about hated hippies. He thought they were silly and full of hot air, but he thought lots of things were silly and full of hot air. What he really didn't like was fundamentalists and religion in general, as well as right-wing politics and politicians.

    I'd make a guess that he didn't think much of rap because much of it was, and is a sort of music without actual musicians.

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    Member StevegSr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baribrotzer View Post
    I don't know about hated hippies. He thought they were silly and full of hot air, but he thought lots of things were silly and full of hot air. What he really didn't like was fundamentalists and religion in general, as well as right-wing politics and politicians.

    I'd make a guess that he didn't think much of rap because much of it was, and is a sort of music without actual musicians.
    Ok, perhaps hate is too strong a word, but wasn't Freakout! a response to the hippy utopian dream?
    To be or not to be? That is the point. - Harry Nilsson.

  4. #4
    He had a rap pastiche "Promiscuous" on Broadway The Hard Way (where Scott Thunes has said he wrote his own part because Zappa just asked him to do a rap rhythm without knowing what a bass player would do in that situation). I remember one interview towards the end of his life where he said he got tired of being asked to debate someone from a Christian organization about free speech every time a rap group cursed or used objectionable artwork. I also remember one where he said they should pay James Brown if they wanted to sample him. I don't know what he thought of rap otherwise.

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    Member StevegSr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pb2015 View Post
    He had a rap pastiche "Promiscuous" on Broadway The Hard Way (where Scott Thunes has said he wrote his own part because Zappa just asked him to do a rap rhythm without knowing what a bass player would do in that situation). I remember one interview towards the end of his life where he said he got tired of being asked to debate someone from a Christian organization about free speech every time a rap group cursed or used objectionable artwork. I also remember one where he said they should pay James Brown if they wanted to sample him. I don't know what he thought of rap otherwise.
    Thanks for that. Yeah, FZ passed away just before rap went ballistic, I think, so there's not much I can find about his views on the "genre".
    To be or not to be? That is the point. - Harry Nilsson.

  6. #6
    I can't remember where I found this – I've got the feeling that it was in Ben Watson's Negative Dialectics of Poodle Play – but I know Zappa was quoted as having that said he loved hip-hop, particularly for the way it was revitalizing vernacular American English, and that he specifically asked Scott Thunes (who programmed the backing track for "Promiscuous") to model the production on Public Enemy.

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    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baribrotzer View Post
    I don't know about hated hippies. He thought they were silly and full of hot air, but he thought lots of things were silly and full of hot air. What he really didn't like was fundamentalists and religion in general, as well as right-wing politics and politicians.

    I'd make a guess that he didn't think much of rap because much of it was, and is a sort of music without actual musicians.
    well, he certainly adopted the hippy looks.

    And if he disliked right-wing conservatives, I never perceived him as a leftie either

    As for Rap & hip-hop, I guess he must've at least appreciated that they took advantage of the freedom gained from his Mother of Prevention fights.
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    And if he disliked right-wing conservatives, I never perceived him as a leftie either
    He wasn't. Gail was a mainstream Democrat, but I'm not at all sure of Frank. In fact, what he said of politics and other issues revealed a certain amount of the paranoid crank in his attitudes. But he did realize that (at least in the US) the radical Left were disorganized, inept, rent by doctrinal squabbles, impoverished, and little serious threat to anyone or anything; whereas the radical Right were tightly led, well-funded, had a whole program plotted out and were following it with considerable success, and represented no small threat to the freedoms he held dear. He also had strong opinions on the responsibilities of the Press in a free society - Linda Ellerbee (US TV journalist) wrote an obituary of him in 1993, on how he would frequently call her right after her broadcast and take her to task for being insufficiently critical of politicians and other people not to be trusted.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by mjudge View Post
    I can't remember where I found this – I've got the feeling that it was in Ben Watson's Negative Dialectics of Poodle Play – but I know Zappa was quoted as having that said he loved hip-hop, particularly for the way it was revitalizing vernacular American English, and that he specifically asked Scott Thunes (who programmed the backing track for "Promiscuous") to model the production on Public Enemy.
    I vaguely remember the last part, but I think Watson mentioned Run DMC, not Public Enemy who had just gotten started when Zappa performed "Promiscuous" in 1988.

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    Member Zeuhlmate's Avatar
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    I remember an interview were he said he was a conservative. What it meant, I'm not sure, probably that he could smell bullshit a mile away - he certainly wasn't a fan of Ronald or Nancy.

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    Member chalkpie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuhlmate View Post
    I remember an interview were he said he was a conservative. What it meant, I'm not sure, probably that he could smell bullshit a mile away - he certainly wasn't a fan of Ronald or Nancy.
    A Practical Conservative, to be exact (according to his book)

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    3:15 - "I am a conservative". Dunno what we can conclude, but thats what he says.



    And Trump is a Republican

  13. #13
    FYI to mjudge: Scott T. didn't program anything on "Promiscuous" because that's all live performance (the stuff that sounds like programmed drums is Chad playing sampled drums off of an Octapad or similar device) - but Scott definitely created his bass part.

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    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuhlmate View Post
    3:15 - "I am a conservative". Dunno what we can conclude, but thats what he says.



    And Trump is a Republican
    Well, he hated Dickie Arsehole Nixon and Reagan. Being a conservative doesn't mean being a republican... plenty of them are democrats... like some pro-guns activists are democrats as well

    This debate is not one of Zappa's best defence IMHO
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by mkeneally View Post
    FYI to mjudge: Scott T. didn't program anything on "Promiscuous" because that's all live performance (the stuff that sounds like programmed drums is Chad playing sampled drums off of an Octapad or similar device) - but Scott definitely created his bass part.
    Ah, OK, thanks for the eyewitness correction. I believe I got that from Ben Watson, who – as you know better than anybody – sometimes plays things a bit loose with data.

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    Shortly after the PMRC hearings, I heard FZ interviewed on Berkeley radio station KPFA discussing his possible plans for a presidential run. I remember very clearly 2 of his statements that might shed some light on our discussion of his political point of view.

    1) "Republicans and democrats are 2 sides of the same coin".
    2) "When a republican get's elected you know exactly what they're going to do. The environment goes to hell, big business thrives, and the rich get richer. When a democrat get's elected, you don't know what they're going to do to you! They're so cash poor that they owe their ass to whatever special interest group decides to throw money their way".

    I know he spoke out very strongly against the Reagan/Christian right/evangelist alliance that was very real in the '80s so I can't imagine he would ally with the R party. As far as the D party, he sure doesn't seem impressed with them either. As a pragmatist, he would have realized that unless he allied with the dems or repubs, he couldn't have gotten far. Interesting to wonder if he actually did put a run together in '88 what party he would have run under?
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by StevegSr View Post
    Ok, perhaps hate is too strong a word, but wasn't Freakout! a response to the hippy utopian dream?
    There was no "hippy utopian dream" in 1965 (when the album was recorded). Most of what got parodied in Freak Out and Absolutely Free were the Establishment squares.

    The MOI did parody hippy culture in We're Only In It For the Money, but if you really listen to the album, the targets are exceedingly local - the idea that Zappa didn't care for the counterculture in general is ridiculous, because he was part of it.

  18. #18
    Estimated Prophet notallwhowander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WytchCrypt View Post
    1) "Republicans and democrats are 2 sides of the same coin".
    2) "When a republican get's elected you know exactly what they're going to do. The environment goes to hell, big business thrives, and the rich get richer. When a democrat get's elected, you don't know what they're going to do to you! They're so cash poor that they owe their ass to whatever special interest group decides to throw money their way".
    Interesting, though a bit dated now. Since the Clintons brought money into the Democratic party, I'm wondering if we have less of a coin and more of a Möbius strip.
    Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by pb2015 View Post
    I vaguely remember the last part, but I think Watson mentioned Run DMC, not Public Enemy who had just gotten started when Zappa performed "Promiscuous" in 1988.
    Run DMC had been making records for 5 years by then, and had been together for a couple years before that.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Facelift View Post

    The MOI did parody hippy culture in We're Only In It For the Money, but if you really listen to the album, the targets are exceedingly local - the idea that Zappa didn't care for the counterculture in general is ridiculous, because he was part of it.
    If I remember correctly from what i read about 25 years ago (I think in the Real Frank Zappa Book), he disliked all the press coverage the San Francisco crowd got because they were "too beautiful", whatever that's supposed to mean. Frank apparently felt, for whatever reason, that the LA scene, which I believe he referred to as the "freak scene" was somehow more interesting. I recall he said something about it being more uglier, therefore it was better (again, a great big shrug from me on that one).

    So Frank didn't hate the counterculture movement, he just thought that the scene he came from was better than the more famous, apparently more beautiful scene up north a bit.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    If I remember correctly from what i read about 25 years ago (I think in the Real Frank Zappa Book), he disliked all the press coverage the San Francisco crowd got because they were "too beautiful", whatever that's supposed to mean. Frank apparently felt, for whatever reason, that the LA scene, which I believe he referred to as the "freak scene" was somehow more interesting. I recall he said something about it being more uglier, therefore it was better (again, a great big shrug from me on that one).

    So Frank didn't hate the counterculture movement, he just thought that the scene he came from was better than the more famous, apparently more beautiful scene up north a bit.
    Frank was an intelligent guy and a great musician. He could be witty and clever with his satire. I love his music - it's been a huge part of my life.

    But, I don't think he had a very consistent philosophy, socially or politically, that gets a whole lot much more sophisticated than that he liked to thumb his nose at various institutions, and he would resort to lazy general cynicism (variants on "everything sucks and nobody is right") when he couldn't be bothered to give a matter any more of his attention.

    I don't want that to read as being anything less than I mean it to, though; for example, when a person of intelligence and insight thumbs his nose at something, it has the likelihood of being a lot more interesting than if the same is being done by someone with less tools. Still, if that becomes one's MO, I can empathize with people who find it tiring after awhile.

    To that end, one unfortunate result of Frank coming along when he did, is that attraction he had to the sexual and perverse. It was because Frank realized how potent that stuff was (at the time) to offend and anger a segment of America that he disliked, that he went to that well so often. I have to believe that if he came about at a later time, that this would have played much less of a role in his music and that the music would have been better for it.

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    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StevegSr View Post
    FZ passed away just before rap went ballistic, I think, so there's not much I can find about his views on the "genre".
    He died in 1993. Beastie Boys' "Licensed To Ill" was released at the end of 1986. Public Enemy's "Fear of a Dark Planet" was 1990. M.C. Hammer's "Please Hammer Don't Hurt Them" was also 1990. It was definitely happening by the time he passed.

    In fact, it probably contributed.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    He died in 1993. Beastie Boys' "Licensed To Ill" was released at the end of 1986. Public Enemy's "Fear of a Dark Planet" was 1990. M.C. Hammer's "Please Hammer Don't Hurt Them" was also 1990. It was definitely happening by the time he passed.
    Given some of the content similarities and intent to shock Frank probably should have admired a lot of the more explicit rap of the day. However, would also have been in his character to dismiss the work of a competitor as being lesser than his own.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    He died in 1993. Beastie Boys' "Licensed To Ill" was released at the end of 1986. Public Enemy's "Fear of a Dark Planet" was 1990. M.C. Hammer's "Please Hammer Don't Hurt Them" was also 1990. It was definitely happening by the time he passed.

    In fact, it probably contributed.
    I looked it up.... in 1993, 30 out of 100 songs on the Billboard Hot 100 were rap. But it would still increase from there in 1995.

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    cunning linguist 3LockBox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    If I remember correctly from what i read about 25 years ago (I think in the Real Frank Zappa Book), he disliked all the press coverage the San Francisco crowd got because they were "too beautiful", whatever that's supposed to mean. Frank apparently felt, for whatever reason, that the LA scene, which I believe he referred to as the "freak scene" was somehow more interesting. I recall he said something about it being more uglier, therefore it was better (again, a great big shrug from me on that one).
    Its the uglier scenes that mostly send us into a panic then eventually drag us along kicking and screaming. Sometimes the so-called uglier truths, while being harder and taking longer to digest, are the ones that are more revealing about otherselves with more lasting impact, especially where societal change is concerned. It's the difference between being suspicious of something existing, knowing it exists, then coming to accept that it exists without feeling threatened by it, and eventually becoming something we look back on wondering why it was ever a point of contention in the first place.

    The political pundits in that video were shaken to their core over lyrical content in popular music. Now that same sentiment is as arcane as racial segregation or homophobia.
    Last edited by 3LockBox; 05-03-2016 at 01:45 AM.
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