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Thread: How did Frank Zappa view rap and hip hop?

  1. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    Well we used to do that in the early 80's... Parking lot parties at Dead gigs ... we used to cross the border on the other side of Lake Ontario (from rochester to Syracuse) with two vans two motorbikes and two cars, and the 10 or 15 of us would occupy six parking spots with the vans on the side of the gates (where trouble was likely to come from, the bikes on yhe exterior of the next two parking spots and the two cars back to back (open trunks, with thermo boxes filled with ice and beers)... the space between the vehicles was the partying place, and we'd score easily some grass from the band's kling'ons followers hanging about the place

    But yeah, that kind of thing became more difficult as time wore on (more security patrols), we almost got busted the last time.
    Yeah, but after Touch Of Grey hit and MTV did their "Day Of The Dead" promotion, it went from maybe a few dozen hanger-ons to more like a few hundred to a couple thousand, and that's when venues started barring the band from coming back. And as you say, security patrols started to increase too. I also recall in 89, there were a couple instances, at two different shows, where someone died. So that just added fuel to the "ban the Dead" fire".

  2. #77
    Member Joe F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    Isn't there actually a town up there named Frisco?
    You might be thinking of Fresno.

    Not the same, and over 150 miles from SF.

  3. #78
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    BTW, you can call NYC whatever the fuck you want. We don't care.

  4. #79
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    BTW, you can call NYC whatever the fuck you want. We don't care.
    obviously you don't... to call a city Big Apple ...

    Toronto's familiar name is Hogtown (never understood wghere that came from... there aren't anymore policemen there than oin other cities of the same size)
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  5. #80
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    Yeah, but after Touch Of Grey hit and MTV did their "Day Of The Dead" promotion, it went from maybe a few dozen hanger-ons to more like a few hundred to a couple thousand, and that's when venues started barring the band from coming back. And as you say, security patrols started to increase too. I also recall in 89, there were a couple instances, at two different shows, where someone died. So that just added fuel to the "ban the Dead" fire".
    yeah, by the time of Dylan & Dead, we'd stopped going to Dead gigs for a few (couple at least) years

    Increasingly difficult to cross the NYS border with dope hidden in the vans. As the grass scored in Dead gigs was not nearly as good as in the early 80's, we had to bring ours along. Then later, Bush Sr and his Tolerance Zero thing freaked us out further
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  6. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    I wonder exactly when Frank was talking about. Maybe in 66 or the first half of 67 that might have been true, but by 1968, the Dead and the Airplane, at the very least, had moved beyond the "white blues bands that weren't funky" stereotype. Maybe it wasn't as "advanced" as Frank's more "far out" compositions (which tended to have little to do with "rock n roll"), but it still had it's own merits that went beyond "funk" or whatever criteria Frank used to judge such things.

    Yeah, ok so they werent' playing Mozart pieces or bayoneting baby dolls onstage, they were just making good music. You can't actually listen to a recording of a guy bayoneting a baby doll, ya know? Just like you can't listen to a guy breathing fire or drooling blood.
    I can't remember where I read this, so somebody might be able to correct me, but I have the feeling that FZ was talking about seeing Jefferson Airplane in '65 or '66.

  7. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    I wonder exactly when Frank was talking about. Maybe in 66 or the first half of 67 that might have been true, but by 1968, the Dead and the Airplane, at the very least, had moved beyond the "white blues bands that weren't funky" stereotype. Maybe it wasn't as "advanced" as Frank's more "far out" compositions (which tended to have little to do with "rock n roll"), but it still had it's own merits that went beyond "funk" or whatever criteria Frank used to judge such things.

    Yeah, ok so they werent' playing Mozart pieces or bayoneting baby dolls onstage, they were just making good music. You can't actually listen to a recording of a guy bayoneting a baby doll, ya know? Just like you can't listen to a guy breathing fire or drooling blood.
    Well, there's my personal response to this, and there's what I can infer about Zappa's opinions: for me, the Dead, Jefferson Airplane, Country Joe, et al are just boring as all hell. And as far as the stage show goes, you're right, of course, but I think it's a mistake to categorize the early Mothers' Dada spectacle as just "showbiz" in the realm of Alice Cooper or Arthur Brown. FZ certainly thought of the live show and the recorded music as two separate artforms, both integral parts of the project/object but not at all a simple reproduction of each other, and though he eventually reworked his concerts into sardonic parodies of arena-rock and top-40 bullshit, the pre-Flo and Eddie shows were designed to disturb, disorient, and sometimes horrify, not just to "entertain."

  8. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Paulrus View Post
    Negative. Full name, SF (usually in writing), or "the city" (after it's already been mentioned in the discussion).

    I can't really explain why, but both "Frisco" and "San Fran" make people's heads explode around here.
    Goes to show I shouldn't listen to others. I've never been there, but a colleague told me that SanFran was acceptable. That being said, it sounds kinda stupid to me.
    "The White Zone is for loading and unloading only. If you got to load or unload go to the White Zone!"

  9. #84
    Jazzbo manqué Mister Triscuits's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe F. View Post
    You might be thinking of Fresno.

    Not the same, and over 150 miles from SF.
    There's also a Wasco in CA. But no Frisco.
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  10. #85
    Estimated Prophet notallwhowander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulrus View Post
    Negative. Full name, SF (usually in writing), or "the city" (after it's already been mentioned in the discussion).

    I can't really explain why, but both "Frisco" and "San Fran" make people's heads explode around here.
    Absolutely correct. I can't explain why either, but I've lived here long enough that it happens to me too.

    What's odd is that "the city" sounds pretentious, but it's used a non-pretentious way. "I went to the city this weekend, and was stuck in traffic for four hours." I can only assume that it is a quaint hold-over from when San Francisco was the only city around worth the name.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garion81 View Post
    I say Frisco because I know it annoys them. Just like when referring to USC I say Southern Cal because I know they hate it. I can understand it though because I cringe whenever someone says Cali.
    Fair enough, it is an obvious, and ultimately rather silly, annoyance to exploit. "Cali" has the same effect on me, too.
    Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world.

  11. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by mjudge View Post
    I can't remember where I read this, so somebody might be able to correct me, but I have the feeling that FZ was talking about seeing Jefferson Airplane in '65 or '66.
    I could imagine him hearing the Grateful Dead play "Good Morning Little Schoolgirl" and saying that.

  12. #87
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by notallwhowander View Post
    As a Bay Area denizen, I must formally oppose the use of the word "Frisco."

    It's just not done here, and every time I read it, it feels like a spider crawling up my back.
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  13. #88
    Jazzbo manqué Mister Triscuits's Avatar
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    Make that two spiders.
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  14. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe F. View Post
    You might be thinking of Fresno.

    Not the same, and over 150 miles from SF.
    Or maybe I'm thinking of Frisco, Colorado? (what's the emoticon for, "I got nothing")

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronmac View Post
    Yep, once people started showing up in brand new tie-dyed shirts without food stains, you knew it was all over.
    Back in 1966, Hunter S. Thompson wrote a great profile of what he termed "The Hashbury," entitled "The Hashbury is the Capital of the Hippies." Before he became a pathetic parody of himself, Thompson's straight journalism was among the strongest I have ever read, and given his rep before he went gonzo, I would trust a substantial amount of it...

  16. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by BigSixFan View Post
    Back in 1966, Hunter S. Thompson wrote a great profile of what he termed "The Hashbury," entitled "The Hashbury is the Capital of the Hippies." Before he became a pathetic parody of himself, Thompson's straight journalism was among the strongest I have ever read, and given his rep before he went gonzo, I would trust a substantial amount of it...
    One of the saddest cases in American letters. That guy was a great writer for a while, and then came the attention and the high-profile gigs and the chance to make a living as a caricature – very like Hemingway and Fitzgerald, for that matter.

  17. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by pb2015 View Post
    I could imagine him hearing the Grateful Dead play "Good Morning Little Schoolgirl" and saying that.
    As I said, if we're talking about the 66-67 era Dead, yeah, I could maybe see the argument. But by 1968, the Dead was moving into a direction where whether or not you could do blues authentically was besides the point. But even besides, I think the live versions of Turn On Your Lovelight and Caution from 1968-1972 indicate a band that had gotten over the "stiff white blues band" stereotype.

    And one could also argue that the Dead eventually demonstrated an aptitude for a different kind of "roots music", as heard on Workingman's Dead and American Beauty.

  18. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by mjudge View Post
    One of the saddest cases in American letters. That guy was a great writer for a while, and then came the attention and the high-profile gigs and the chance to make a living as a caricature – very like Hemingway and Fitzgerald, for that matter.
    Yeah, he became more famous for being a wingnut and inspiring a Doonesbury character into existence ("Duke, your resume reads like a police blotter!") than he was for being a great writer.

  19. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    As I said, if we're talking about the 66-67 era Dead, yeah, I could maybe see the argument. But by 1968, the Dead was moving into a direction where whether or not you could do blues authentically was besides the point. But even besides, I think the live versions of Turn On Your Lovelight and Caution from 1968-1972 indicate a band that had gotten over the "stiff white blues band" stereotype.

    And one could also argue that the Dead eventually demonstrated an aptitude for a different kind of "roots music", as heard on Workingman's Dead and American Beauty.
    There is a Zappa interview from 1977 where he mentioned he had just heard a new song by the Dead, not knowing it was them, and liked it.

  20. #95
    I just ran through this whole thread and didn't notice anyone mentioning that, at it's core, "Dumb All Over", is a rap. Period.

  21. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by mjudge View Post
    Well, there's my personal response to this, and there's what I can infer about Zappa's opinions: for me, the Dead, Jefferson Airplane, Country Joe, et al are just boring as all hell. And as far as the stage show goes, you're right, of course, but I think it's a mistake to categorize the early Mothers' Dada spectacle as just "showbiz" in the realm of Alice Cooper or Arthur Brown. FZ certainly thought of the live show and the recorded music as two separate artforms, both integral parts of the project/object but not at all a simple reproduction of each other, and though he eventually reworked his concerts into sardonic parodies of arena-rock and top-40 bullshit, the pre-Flo and Eddie shows were designed to disturb, disorient, and sometimes horrify, not just to "entertain."
    Wow, I didn't even think of Coop or Arthur Brown. I had somebody else in mind. I mean, I can see there being an actual point to, say, bayoneting a baby doll onstage, viz-a-viz as a protest or commentary about Vietnam (was this before or after we knew about My Lai?), so I can see that being an "artistic" statement or whatever and not just mere "showbiz".

    I just think saying "Oh, Frank was making a big statement about Vietnam and the Grateful Dead/Airplane/Country Joe/Quicksilver/Did-I-Leave-Anybody-Out? weren't" misses the point of what the San Francisco bands were about. Those bands were about the music, not making some big performance art statement (which should have been obvious from the fact that, as Gene Simmons once noted, sometimes when they'd start jamming, they'd literally turn their backs to the audience).

  22. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by pb2015 View Post
    There is a Zappa interview from 1977 where he mentioned he had just heard a new song by the Dead, not knowing it was them, and liked it.
    Would be curious to know which one it was. Dollars to donuts it wasn't Terrapin Station.

    I remember actually one interview, when he was featured in Guitar Player in 77 (the one with him on the cover with the "Hendrix" Strat), he said liked Dr. Brian May, which implies he must have spent some amount of time listening to Queen. I think he said liked Jeff Beck too.

  23. #98
    He said a few times that he liked Queen and Jeff Beck, yes.

  24. #99
    Member zravkapt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by veteranof1000psychicwars View Post
    I just ran through this whole thread and didn't notice anyone mentioning that, at it's core, "Dumb All Over", is a rap. Period.
    The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off

  25. #100
    Member wideopenears's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronmac View Post
    I was actually waiting for that. It's my understanding that you folks prefer "SanFran."

    You are correct, sir. We prefer you use the full name, though. San Francisco.

    Wear some flowers in your hair, by the way....
    "And this is the chorus.....or perhaps it's a bridge...."

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