Can We Please Stop With The Damned Sound Effect?

[ronmac]

If its all about the listener, then by all means, perhaps the listener should decide weather a song can be released or not.

+1

[StevegSr]

I didn't get up on the wrong side of bed, Steve; I could have accused you of the same So let's not, shall we?

You're a retired recording engineer, so you've one set of experiences; I'm a retired professional musician and a very much active music writer (hate using terms like journalist or critic). As much as you've got plenty of experience, so do I...that we differ only speaks to our own .

But, like I said, your experience may differ....but please don't suggest that just because mine differs from yours that there's something wrong with me. After all, the subject of this thread is pretty aggressive:

No lets, but in a friendlier way. I have recorded music for the sole intent of making a musical product for people to purchase. The products that I helped to produce made the artists, their music publishers and the artist's record companies money. A lot of money. I've had the pleasure of working with musicians who have great integrity also, and they were not so interested in the money. But frankly, to think that one exists without the other is strange to me, no matter what your personal experiences are. Did you never hear of artists compromising themselves in order to break into the big time. To "go commercial" as it's called?

I may look at music artists with a particular slant, but I'm not blind either and can clearly see both sides of the issue. Artists with integrity and artists without integrity (or who compromised theirs). Just like the fact that there are good and bad people in the world. Day and night., etc., etc.

[JKL2000]

I only dislike whalesounds, going on for several minutes at the end of a CD.

LOL I think all albums should end like that, or with a few minutes of the sound of children playing in a park.

[soundsweird]

You know, I've heard a lot of albums where the effects were the best part of the album... I think, as with all of the various components that make up a recording, effects can be good or bad depending on whether they're original or cliché (a common problem), just long enough or too long (also a common problem), well-recorded or not, etc., etc.; there's no hard and fast rule. I have a lot of experimental/electronic/electroacoustic albums that some people would say are nothing but effects. Just remember something my college Composition professors drilled into us students: the definition of music is "organized sound". Sure, the dictionary goes on to say, "usually rhythmic and using a musical scale of some sort", but not always.

[GuitarGeek]

More so-called "fans" telling artists what to create. How silly.

You make sound like a bunch of record company executives who don't know anything about music. Please!

[Digital_Man]

LOL I think all albums should end like that, or with a few minutes of the sound of children playing in a park.

Has any album actually ended that way? I know I've heard the sound of children in the playground or wherever on albums before but I can't remember any time it was tacked on at the very end.

[Nijinsky Hind]

The birds tweeting in the MORE soundtrack pink floyd. Could not do without them.

[JKL2000]

Has any album actually ended that way? I know I've heard the sound of children in the playground or wherever on albums before but I can't remember any time it was tacked on at the very end.

Ok, ya got me!! How about albums that begin with the sound of distant circus music?

[robdebank]

Just stop listening to it. LOL.

[Dave (in MA)]

The title track of Phaedra ends with the sound of children playing in a playground.

[Scrotum Scissor]

Just remember something my college Composition professors drilled into us students: the definition of music is "organized sound".

Courtesy Edgard Varése. It became a part of the paradigma which finally allowed for "other" music principles to be included in the main textbook; birdsong, musique concréte, incidental and/or found sound, surface noise, speech, microtonality or upper frequencies etc. It was pretty much as a result of this shift in paradigm that an otherwise so apparently trivial phenomenon as "rock" would come to be accepted as a subject of studies at music academies beginning in the early 80s. Ironically, many of those now so eager to see 'prog rock' elevated into academic analytical status would never accept noise or sound sculpturing as music.

[Zeuhlmate]

Just remember something my college Composition professors drilled into us students: the definition of music is "organized sound". Sure, the dictionary goes on to say, "usually rhythmic and using a musical scale of some sort", but not always.

[Socrates]

"Music is the cup which holds the wine of silence." Robert FRIPP

[infandous]

I'm not really sure I understand the problem here. I have only heard one instance of what I would consider "filler", and it was at the end of Camel's album Harbour of Tears with over 10 minutes of ocean wave sounds. Even then, while I thought this was excessive, it actually had some relevance to the album concept and wasn't included in the track time of the final track (so they didn't claim it was a 20 minute track on the sleeve, only 8 minutes, with the ocean sounds being a kind of "bonus" I guess). Also, being at the end it is easy to just stop the CD.

I'm actually a fan of much of what people are complaining about here. I have no doubt it could be overused or used completely out of context, but I have yet to actually hear that happen with an album or song. I don't really feel the need to tell musicians and band what they should or shouldn't do (though I'm sure I have made comments to that effect over the years......more of what I think they should do, rather than actually thinking they gave a crap what I thought). Anyway, I'd love to hear an example of what the OP or others don't like.

[ProgArtist]

Anyway, I'd love to hear an example of what the OP or others don't like.

As would I. I agree with those who have said that, like any musical concept or tool, it depends on how well it's done.

[Plasmatopia]

When it works it's great when it doesn't its naff.

Yup. Enough said.

[Plasmatopia]

I only dislike whalesounds, going on for several minutes at the end of a CD.

Unless they are made with Adrian Belew's guitar...

[-=RTFR666=-]

Unless they are made with Adrian Belew's guitar...

I prefer Ade's rhinos and elephants over humpbacks any day

[Plasmatopia]

I prefer Ade's rhinos and elephants over humpbacks any day

Okay, several minutes of rhinos and elephants and big electric cats it is, then!

[Jefferson James]

The last 3 minutes of Transatlantic's "All of the Above" is something I would have left on the cutting room floor; I'm not questioning the band's motives but to me it's superfluous. There are mini pop masterpieces like "God Only Knows" that are shorter than that ending. If someone digs it, great, I just skip it after a reasonable 10-15 seconds or so. Incidentally I adore the track.

Edit: As for Musique Concrete or found sounds, collages, ambient, etc., I appreciate those approaches but within the context of rock-n-roll, which I would say fully encompasses 90% of the bands discussed here, if not used discreetly, it can be an annoyance or seen as padding. For me, to hear an artist taking this approach for the sake of expanding an otherwise conventional prog-rock song just doesn't sit right. That's not to say it's wrong, but to me I've always seen it as a shortcut, a cheap and easy ploy. I can fire up my synths right now and record 20 minutes of me noodling with some new sounds, maybe do a couple of overdubs, and create a unique chunk of sound, but that requires very little thought or discipline on my part compared to imagining chord changes and rhythms, then seeking out and finding them.

I prefer brevity and conciseness even within the context of a 10-minute prog-rock song. Keep it movin', don't bore us, get to the chorus. I am a dinosaur that way but if it ain't broke, don't fix it -- make it better and more interesting.

All my personal opinion of course!!! It's rock-n-roll, anything goes.

[ProgArtist]

...I can fire up my synths right now and record 20 minutes of me noodling with some new sounds, maybe do a couple of overdubs, and create a unique chunk of sound, but that requires very little thought or discipline on my part compared to imagining chord changes and rhythms, then seeking out and finding them...

I guess that's where the issue is with me. If it's what your talking about- some keyboard washes and sound effects quickly thrown together- then it's going to come across that way. If the ambient/sound effect section was given the same amount of creativity and effort of a more "composed" section of a similar length, then it less likely come across as filler.

[Rarebird]

The last 3 minutes of Transatlantic's "All of the Above" is something I would have left on the cutting room floor; I'm not questioning the band's motives but to me it's superfluous. There are mini pop masterpieces like "God Only Knows" that are shorter than that ending. If someone digs it, great, I just skip it after a reasonable 10-15 seconds or so. Incidentally I adore the track.

Edit: As for Musique Concrete or found sounds, collages, ambient, etc., I appreciate those approaches but within the context of rock-n-roll, which I would say fully encompasses 90% of the bands discussed here, if not used discreetly, it can be an annoyance or seen as padding. For me, to hear an artist taking this approach for the sake of expanding an otherwise conventional prog-rock song just doesn't sit right. That's not to say it's wrong, but to me I've always seen it as a shortcut, a cheap and easy ploy. I can fire up my synths right now and record 20 minutes of me noodling with some new sounds, maybe do a couple of overdubs, and create a unique chunk of sound, but that requires very little thought or discipline on my part compared to imagining chord changes and rhythms, then seeking out and finding them.


All my personal opinion of course!!! It's rock-n-roll, anything goes.

You could say the same for improvising over a couple of chords. Just because you think there is not much thought going on in creating something, that might sound like some noodling with sounds, doesn't mean, there isn't creativity and thinking involved.

How about this?

[Jefferson James]

I guess that's where the issue is with me. If it's what your talking about- some keyboard washes and sound effects quickly thrown together- then it's going to come across that way. If the ambient/sound effect section was given the same amount of creativity and effort of a more "composed" section of a similar length, then it less likely come across as filler.

Right on and we're in agreement, it's a touchy thing because one man's "thrown together ambient bullshit" (me) is another's "this is the moment where space and time collide within the confines of the song."

I'm pretty rigid when it comes to rock-n-roll songwriting and I hold myself and others to a standard based on actual composed music as opposed to a more free-form approach. I use a lot of building blocks in my rock writing but long ambient washes, whether thought-out or off-the-cuff, are but a teeny tiny part of my toy box, something to be used sparingly and with intent as opposed to dragging on and on and...on. Not for any reason other than I find it boring in rock music.

Again, music written for those purposes -- ambient or soundscape listening experiences where one can either tune-in to the sounds, or just let them pulse along as a backing track while someone reads a book -- are totally cool and totally interesting approaches. I listen to stuff like that regularly but when I want to rock-n-roll, that's not what I turn to. It's like pairing pickled herring and chocolate ice cream to me. Both fine on their own, but together? If a chef did this, I'd be totally thinking they were trying too hard to be "a chef" and in a way, I feel the same way about ambient approaches being used in rock-n-roll.

[Jefferson James]

You could say the same for improvising over a couple of chords. Just because you think there is not much thought going on in creating something, that might sound like some noodling with sounds, doesn't mean, there isn't creativity and thinking involved.

How about this?

Wow, that's pretty cool! I love stuff like this, just not too much in a rock song context. I would totally use a few seconds of just about any part of this cool sound experiment in a prog-rock song, but not the full thing in one go.

My point is in prog-rock using all 2:29 of the above as an intro would likely result in me hitting "skip" within about a minute or so.

Listening to this as a stand-alone collection of cool synth sounds and rhythms is no problem for me. Would I listen to this more than a few times? Likely not, but it's still cool. It it interesting enough to entice me to try to uncover the layers of whatever it is these guys are going for? Not likely. Why? Because no matter how much thought went into this piece, to me and likely the average listener, it still sounds like a collection of random sounds being generated in real time by a synth operator.

As for jamming over 2 keys or whatever, I feel the same way as with ambient washes -- keep it short and to the point. Again, within a rock context.|

Thanks for that trippy vid.

[StevegSr]

Well, it wouldn't be prog without the sound effects, I suppose. I can only think of Phil Rizzuto's play by play in Paradise By The Dashboard Lights as a stand out "sound effect" in a straight rock song.