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Thread: King Crimson, Live in Toronto, an alternative review

  1. #51
    In his diaries for many months before this lineup toured RF was speaking a lot about "Rough Music" and it's usage and even a little history... I feel the band has and will be utilizing "Rough Music" with the three drummers, as they did in radical action Monkey mind. Just a guess.
    Still alive and well...

  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by bondegezou View Post
    I am reacting against some overly hagiographic reviews of the album and have written more of negatives than positives. This isn't a bad album. You get some classic Crimson played by some classic Crimson members (plus a fine substitute). If you want a more radical deconstruction of old Crimson numbers, I do recommend the Delta Saxophone Quartet's Crimson! If you want some '70s classics played with more fire, Four Decades and Curtain Call are now available at a reasonable price on iTunes after an earlier Japanese physical release.
    I agree that the Delta Saxophone Q album with Gwilym is remarkable, and I hope to review it in the coming weeks.

    I really, of course, don't agree with your assessment of Live in Toronto (obviously, based in my "hagiographic" review). I think that this is a Crimson that can, for the first time, actually look back credibly at its early catalog, and does so really, really well..with the three-drummer frontline and two guitarists allowing them to interpret the music in ways the old four-or-five-piece bands of the '70s simply could not.

    I also think the percussion section brings modernity to much - but not all - of the music. It's hard to do a lot with Epitaph or ItCotCK without losing their core, their essence. But other material - The Letters, Pictures of a City, Sailors Tale, LTIA Part one and others really benefit and sound fresh rather than nostalgic to these ears.

    And yes, this is a Crimson geared around Fripp's (and his band mates') comfort. A travel day between dates, ands playing 2-3 nights.city for the most part...along with playing with people who bring no melodrama to the experience are important for him, and why not? This is the first Crimson in decades where he's been as lit up as the rest; it's also the first I can recall where he was actually making eye contact with the band and audience...and even smiling. He was having a good time.

    A jazz musician who I'll not name recently described his most recent tours and bands from 2012-14 as some of his most enjoyable because the people he was playing with are mature, no melodrama, and simply come to the venue each and every night to play the best show they can. Is there a reason why an artist, especially one who's been through decades of touring, cannot reasonably ask for such things, so that touring and playing is as pleasurable an experience as possible?

    I think not. I've seen this Crimson four times, and every time they gave it all. The arrangements made perfect sense, including the drum interludes that you don't happen to like (and fair enough; to each their own). Boring to one is heaven for another, and I found just watching the three drummers work the arrangements each night so that they followed the script but also interpreted them somewhat differently each night to be a total joy.

    So, I can accept your not liking this record...or this Crimson. But I think it's unfair to consider those who thing otherwise as "hagiographic." Taste is taste, and if you are entitled to your overly negative, under-appreciative viewpoint (which could, to some extent, be considered negative hagiography ), then there's room and validity for those who think otherwise.

    Myself included.

  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Triscuits View Post
    It's obvious that none of the old material needs three drummers, since it was originally recorded with just one, or in some cases two. I'm not sure that the experiment is 100% successful--this lineup does sacrifice an element of swing, even in "Pictures of a City"--but there's some really thrilling stuff on Toronto where all three are in full flight, playing very distinct parts. The new approach does require a new and different way of listening--we're just not used to hearing not just that density but that kind of activity from that part of the band--and it does come at the cost of a certain stiffness in parts that used to flow. Is it worth it? I say hell yes!
    Happy to read this... and I second the "hell, yes" with a Team America "Fuck, YEAH!!"

    Also, to answer the question: why does it need three drummers when the original versions only had one?

    Well, let's counter with this: A lot of Steely Dan albums are smaller group efforts; the current touring Dan is a large band - in addition to Becker & Fagen, an additional 11 pieces. Most of the music they played didn't have that many players, so why bring so many on this tour. To hide Fagan (who used to have stage fright back in the day but is now totally lit up with a huge spotlight throughout almost the entire show)? Not likely.

    So why do it? How about: because B&F think it will add something to the music, something that will make it more than simply regurgitating the original songs with their original arrangements?

    And I apologize, Mr. Triscuits; I didn't read the rest of your post so will delete my first reply. Clearly we're on the same page. Not that we need to be, but happy to hear it!

  4. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Triscuits View Post

    The "nostalgia" tag, though, is a cheap shot. This isn't a legacy band trotting out its old hits for the umpteenth time. Crimson never really had any hits, and by eliminating all of the Belew-era vocal repertoire, they've ruled out most of their best-known songs and long-standing concert staples. A nostalgic Crimson certainly wouldn't ditch "Heartbeat," "Sleepless," "Elephant Talk," "Thela Hun Ginjeet," etc. King Crimson has long been a band that was notorious for almost entirely disavowing the pre-Discipline repertoire. Bondegezou chides the KC for not "challeng[ing] our idea of what Crimson can be," and yet this sudden turnaround of embracing the '60s-'70s material is itself a reinvention of the band's nature. A nostalgia band would of course have played the old songs straight, not come up with a bizarre and unique instrumental format. The criticism in the review that the septet lineup--still a rock band, after all--doesn't rework the material as drastically as the arrangements for chamber ensembles is ridiculous and irrelevant.
    To admit otherwise would destroy his kooky agenda of equating the basic aims of 21st Century King Crimson with that of Yes, so that the former could not be considered the artistic superior to the latter. To that end, it's therefore necessary to cast KC as just another dinosaur nostalgia act, no matter how unsupportable the position is.

  5. #55
    Parrots Ripped My Flesh Dave (in MA)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nijinsky Hind View Post
    I wonder if anyone else has noticed the 2 note starless guitar solo being quite different and shorter than previous versions. It lacks intensity for some reason. Nitpicking again.
    IIRC it was performed by Jakszyk. Also IIRC, the tune in its entirety exceeds that of the Red version by a few minutes.

  6. #56
    Parrots Ripped My Flesh Dave (in MA)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bondegezou View Post
    In my review, really just some thoughts thrown together, I made only passing reference to any archival boxsets and made more comparison to some other "recent live recordings made by other current editions of legacy prog bands" (specifically Curtain Call and Four Decades).
    Last night I fired up iTunes (which I almost never do) so that I could listen to the sound clips. Curtain Call doesn't seem to add anything compelling, and Four Decades I'm not sure. The vocals on the Curved Air material? Yeesh.

  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave (in MA) View Post
    IIRC it was performed by Jakszyk. Also IIRC, the tune in its entirety exceeds that of the Red version by a few minutes.
    Oh I didnt know that. I was comparing the orpheum vs the Toronto starless. I wonder if RF did the solo on the orpheum? The slow deliberate progression of notes and timing of the buildup leading to the crescendo (for lack of a better word) on the orpheum is quite awesome.
    Still alive and well...

  8. #58
    Parrots Ripped My Flesh Dave (in MA)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nijinsky Hind View Post
    Oh I didnt know that. I was comparing the orpheum vs the Toronto starless. I wonder if RF did the solo on the orpheum? The slow deliberate progression of notes and timing of the buildup leading to the crescendo (for lack of a better word) on the orpheum is quite awesome.
    As I wrote, "IIRC". I do recall being surprised seeing him play parts that were Fripp's originally.

  9. #59
    Member Jay.Dee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bondegezou View Post
    In my review, really just some thoughts thrown together, I made only passing reference to any archival boxsets and made more comparison to some other "recent live recordings made by other current editions of legacy prog bands" (specifically Curtain Call and Four Decades). So, that's the juxtaposition you wanted, isn't it?
    Indeed, those were valid comparisons, but since I have not heard any of them I cannot give my opinion. All I am able to do is to compare the modern live releases of KC, VdGG and YES (listed upthread), most of which I partially sampled on streaming services and none of which has really made me interested enough to buy it, even though the differences in the approach and level of playing are IMO very discernible.

    If you rate Curtain Call and Four Decades higher than KC's latest live output, then I may want to sample them too, though in general I am not into legacy bands doing legacy stuff thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by bondegezou View Post
    Whatever, I'm glad we're in agreement that Crimson does nostalgia.
    Has there been any disagreement over it? The whole argument is not about denying that Crimson have been recently touring focused on their legacy material, but about the quality of delivery and its (relative) freshness.

    I can also remember you wondering in other threads why YES get always slammed for their recent live activity while other bands (like VdGG or notably KC) get praised when doing the similar thing. Well, for me the key difference is how they approach the old material, how they play it and how they compose their live recordings for release (new/improv-to-old/safe ratio).

    Now that you're writing that UK/Jobson play/release the legacy stuff in a (relatively) fresh and interesting way, it may only prove that it is not KC that are so special at doing nostalgia, but only that your favourite band just cannot cut it anymore.
    Last edited by Jay.Dee; 03-30-2016 at 03:02 PM.

  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Nijinsky Hind View Post
    I wonder if RF did the solo on the orpheum?
    I think RF and JJ actually split it.

  11. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave (in MA) View Post
    As I wrote, "IIRC". I do recall being surprised seeing him play parts that were Fripp's originally.
    On the pre-80's stuff, Jakko's been playing the parts that Fripp can't play in New Standard Tuning, for the most part. The "two note solo" in Starless in standard tuning involves a (I could be mathing this all wrong) 5 fret stretch to play the unisons on two strings. In Fripps NST, it's like an 8 fret, beyond human finger lengths, stretch.

  12. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by jkelman View Post
    Based on what?

    Just wondering. I find it interesting that folks say things like "they don't need three drummers" when the founding premise of this incarnation was absolute that: three drummers.
    Well put. I hereby bequeath this argument to you for future handling. I've grown weary of it.

  13. #63
    Jazzbo manqué Mister Triscuits's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Facelift View Post
    To admit otherwise would destroy his kooky agenda of equating the basic aims of 21st Century King Crimson with that of Yes, so that the former could not be considered the artistic superior to the latter.
    Tiresome, isn't it? He's been singing that same old song for years. Talk about a nostalgia act!
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  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay.Dee View Post
    KC were defunct for a decade, if we exclude a short reunion for the 40th Anniversary Tour in 2009, so comparing the amount of studio albums makes no sense. Hence let us stick to assessing the recent live releases from the prog bands riding the nostalgia wave.
    It was you who brought VDGG into it. It was me who pointed out that the comparison was not valid.
    Last edited by JJ88; 03-30-2016 at 04:28 PM.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    It was you who brought VDGG into it. It was me who pointed out that the comparison was not valid.
    In my opinion the comparison is perfectly valid because we have been talking here about touring and live albums. Enough to check how much legacy material was included on Van der Graaf's recent live releases.

  16. #66
    Member Phlakaton's Avatar
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    I have trouble with a lot of music - not translating into the same place on record - as it was live. I didnt get to see this line up live on this tour - and I have a feeling I would have been really happy and excited being there in person - but like ZPZ and many other bands - this one isnt working for me on the speakers at home. I think its a pretty good document - but I dont think I'll be playing it much - the vocals bug the hell out of me too. I dont feel like I have to praise a band every time just because they're named King Crimson or whatever.

  17. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Phlakaton View Post
    I have trouble with a lot of music - not translating into the same place on record - as it was live. I didnt get to see this line up live on this tour - and I have a feeling I would have been really happy and excited being there in person - but like ZPZ and many other bands - this one isnt working for me on the speakers at home. I think its a pretty good document - but I dont think I'll be playing it much - the vocals bug the hell out of me too. I dont feel like I have to praise a band every time just because they're named King Crimson or whatever.
    A DVD will be the best way to enjoy documents of the last two tours. I'm sure one will be forthcoming. It's partly because I'm furthering my goals of limiting physical media purchases to a handful per year, but I'm passing on buying Live in Toronto as well. I'm totally in when a DVD becomes available, though.

  18. #68
    Bondegezou - how dare you have an opinion! I've not heard the set yet, so I don't have an opinion, but I found your review to be well thought out & well expressed. By the way - as people compare, contrast & poopoo KC, VDGG & Yes: is it OK that I like all 3 & don't begrudge any of them earning a living by playing live shows that people attend voluntarily?
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  19. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by jkelman View Post
    Based on what?

    Just wondering. I find it interesting that folks say things like "they don't need three drummers" when the founding premise of this incarnation was absolute that: three drummers.

    Worth all due respect, you're saying you know better than the musician who brought this incarnation together, and the drummer who has written the majority of the drum arrangements?

    I dunno, I guess I would never presume to know better than the artist about what the music needs. But maybe that's just me.
    I would never presume to dismiss the experience that so many have had listening to this music, namely the experience that three drummers is superfluous. That suggests to me that the musician who brought this incarnation together has failed to actualise whatever led him to choose that premise.

    The music should justify the choices made by the musicians (or at least not actively suggest they were wrong). If the music fails in that regard, then, yes, as a listener, I will tell the musicians that they got it wrong -- at least for my ears. And I've seen you give bad reviews, so clearly you are happy to presume to know better than the artist too.

    I see little interest in talking about music if we all extol an attitude of "the musician knows best and cannot be questioned".

    Henry
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  20. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Facelift View Post
    A DVD will be the best way to enjoy documents of the last two tours. I'm sure one will be forthcoming. It's partly because I'm furthering my goals of limiting physical media purchases to a handful per year, but I'm passing on buying Live in Toronto as well.
    So, you take ad hominem potshots at me to defend an album you haven't even heard and are not planning to buy? LOL. Talk about "unsupportable"...

    Henry
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  21. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by bondegezou View Post
    an attitude of "the musician knows best and cannot be questioned".
    Can't say I've ever really seen that around here, but there often is an attitude of "the musician knows what they're doing and often it's for the best, whether we see it right away or not."

  22. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by wilcox660 View Post
    Bondegezou - how dare you have an opinion! I've not heard the set yet, so I don't have an opinion, but I found your review to be well thought out & well expressed.
    Thanks. It was rather hastily written, and I'm not great at reviewing, but I felt moved to say some things about the album, and didn't want to crash anyone else's thread!

    Quote Originally Posted by wilcox660 View Post
    By the way - as people compare, contrast & poopoo KC, VDGG & Yes: is it OK that I like all 3 & don't begrudge any of them earning a living by playing live shows that people attend voluntarily?
    I have tried VdGG on several occasions, but for some reason have never gotten into them. Still, they're clearly talented and committed musicians and I can admire their commitment to move forward with their band. I agree with you and don't begrudge any of the musicians in VdGG, Crimson or Yes -- currently or in the past -- earning a living. Ticket sales show they're all doing something right. I don't know the VdGG guys, but the likes of Fripp, Howe, Jakszyk, White, Levin, Downes, Mastelotto &c. have all written enough great music in the past that I'd forgive them most things! And, indeed, there's plenty of great music in the present from the ranks of these musicians: let's highlight Levin Torn White for an album mixing members of both bands.

    I made comparisons in the review to Jobson/UK and the Delta Saxophone Quartet and Morgaua Quartet albums as those were uppermost in my mind as other recent purchases. I have a great love for Yes, so I realise my views there are considered dubious-to-unacceptable by some. I see both similarities and dissimilarities between Yes and Crimson. At the end of the day, I think Crimson, Yes, Ian Anderson, Carl Palmer, Asia, Rush, Roger Waters, David Gilmour, Eddie Jobson and indeed VdGG all face a similar environment, so some similarities in their reactions are unsurprising.

    I am also struck by my own changing reaction to the music of nostalgia. (Maybe "nostalgia" is the wrong word entirely, but bear with me for now.) I once just wanted new music and passed over multiple live versions. As I age, I find myself more often coming back to the 'canon' and being interested in subtler variations in performance. Alternate takes and remixes on those deluxe re-releases, live versions from back then, live versions today, covers and re-interpretations all appeal to me more. I wonder whether it's because they give a window into what makes a piece work. Have others found that their interest in variants on the 'original' recording has changed over time?

    Henry
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  23. #73
    Member Jay.Dee's Avatar
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    OK, I did the maths and here is the percentage of the "new" material (in running minutes, last 20 years) included on the last four proper live releases (ordered by the recording date) from the three legacy prog bands "doing nostalgia":

    King Crimson:

    a) Level Five (2001) - 100%
    b) EleKtrik: Live in Japan (2003) - 92%
    c) Live at the Orpheum (2014) - 27%
    d) Live in Toronto (2015) - 24%

    Van der Graaf Generator:

    a) Real Time (2005) - 11%
    b) Live at the Paradiso (2007) - 19%
    c) Live at Metropolis Studios (2010) - 49%
    d) Merlin Atmos (2013) - 28%

    YES:

    a) Songs of Tsongas (2004) - 13%
    b) In the Present: Live from Lyon (2011) - 0%
    c) Like It Is: At the Bristol Hippodrome (2014) - 0%
    d) Like It Is: At the Mesa Arts Center (2015) - 0%
    Last edited by Jay.Dee; 03-30-2016 at 05:20 PM.

  24. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by jkelman View Post
    So, I can accept your not liking this record...or this Crimson. But I think it's unfair to consider those who thing otherwise as "hagiographic." Taste is taste, and if you are entitled to your overly negative, under-appreciative viewpoint (which could, to some extent, be considered negative hagiography ), then there's room and validity for those who think otherwise.

    Myself included.
    John, I did not intend my comments to be personal. You like what you like, and you right fluently about it. I don't want that to change.

    Henry
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  25. #75
    Insect Overlord Progatron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilcox660 View Post
    By the way - as people compare, contrast & poopoo KC, VDGG & Yes: is it OK that I like all 3 & don't begrudge any of them earning a living by playing live shows that people attend voluntarily?
    THIS. Ten million times this.
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