King Crimson, Live in Toronto, an alternative review

[Kcrimso]

There is a notable difference between a honourable retreat (KC, VdGG) and an ignominious defeat (we all know the names), isn't it?

YES, we know the names...

[JJ88]

^Well, quite. But I find it hard to put VDGG in the same bracket as King Crimson. Since reforming, VDGG have released 3 albums of new material (more if one also includes those 'jam' albums), with another on the way. And Hammill himself has continued releasing new albums, as he always has done.

King Crimson haven't really had a new studio album since, what, The Power To Believe? Even Yes have managed more new albums....one can argue about their quality of lack thereof, granted, but they were new nevertheless.

I don't have an issue with King Crimson doing old material, FWIW- it's great material that has been left unplayed for far too long. But the comparison with VDGG is off.

[bondegezou]

This is one of the best recorded live albums I have ever heard. The music and mix are excellent

I agree that it's a very well recorded and mixed album. Top notch work on that front.

Short version of the review: It's crap.

No. It's a fine album. But it's not, for me, a great album. I like how Frum B put it: "least essential".

Henry

[Jay.Dee]

I find it hard to put VDGG in the same bracket as King Crimson. Since reforming, VDGG have released 3 albums of new material (more if one also includes those 'jam' albums), with another on the way. And Hammill himself has continued releasing new albums, as he always has done.

King Crimson haven't really had a new studio album since, what, The Power To Believe? Even Yes have managed more new albums....one can argue about their quality of lack thereof, granted, but they were new nevertheless.

I don't have an issue with King Crimson doing old material, FWIW- it's great material that has been left unplayed for far too long. But the comparison with VDGG is off.

KC were defunct for a decade, if we exclude a short reunion for the 40th Anniversary Tour in 2009, so comparing the amount of studio albums makes no sense. Hence let us stick to assessing the recent live releases from the prog bands riding the nostalgia wave.

King Crimson:

a) EleKtrik: Live in Japan (2003)
b) Live at the Orpheum (2014)
c) Live in Toronto (2015)

Van der Graaf Generator:

a) Live at the Paradiso (2007)
b) Live at Metropolis Studios (2010)
c) Merlin Atmos (2013)

YES:

a) In the Present: Live from Lyon (2011)
b) Like It Is: At the Bristol Hippodrome (2014)
c) Like It Is: At the Mesa Arts Center (2015)

Anyone unable to see a difference between the retreat and the defeat is kindly requested to assess the amount of new (modern) songs/improvs (as well as the overall quality of performances) on the releases of each band.

BTW, I cannot see a major difference in the new-to-old or performance freshness ratio between the recent editions of VdGG and KC. YES on the other hand...

[NogbadTheBad]

Least essential? Amongst the hundreds of available live recordings KC have released? I find that a little harsh. Surely it ranks reasonably highly amongst live albums as being the sole full concert by this line up, I'd say at least top 30.

[Spiral]

I'm sorry but a nostalgia band to me is a band like Journey. Going out year after year, trotting out the same old tired hits. Not a band playing music that has either never been played live or if so, not in decades. You may not like the lineup or the song selection, but they are hardly out there milking the cash cow by helping fans relive their younger years.

Well, that last sentence may be debatable, considering how many folks seem thrilled at hearing the golden oldies. But I'd say you're right about the rest. Barring a couple constant staples, they've never stayed too stuck in a rut setlist-wise, and the current tours are no different.

"Nostalgia" is such an odd label for these things. As I remember saying in some other thread, there are bands that coast on playing the same stuff the same way and there are also some that manage to stay genuinely fired up and passionate about even the perennial hits. I'd say Crimson is still more different from that, since they make a deliberate effort to approach everything as if it was new. The results are less radically changed for some pieces than others, but that intention is still important.

[It's been barely two and a half] years since Fripp announced Crimson was returning and I haven't heard anything that convinces me that this is something more than the least essential version of the band ever assembled.

People also questioned the Double Trio's essentialness when it formed--bringing back the same live stuff they'd been playing in the 80s, but expanded with extra members doubling up roles the band already had. The current septet definitely makes a bigger change from its predecessor if nothing else (more personnel changes, new singer, very different sonic palette).

[bondegezou]

King Crimson physical releases predominantly of old material since 2009:

a) In the Court of the Crimson King, 40th Anniversary Series (2009), $22.99
b) KCCC40: Live in Boston, MA, 1972 (2009), 2 discs, $15.99
c) KCCC41: Live in Zurich, 1973 (2009), 2 discs, $19.99
d) 40th Anniversary Tour Box (2009), $25
e) In The Wake of Poseidon 40th Anniversary Series (2010), $22.99
f) Lizard: 40th Anniversary Series (2010), $22.99
g) Islands: 40th Anniversary Series (2010), $22.99
h) KCCC43: Live in Chicago, IL, 1995 (2010), 2 discs, $19.99
i) KCCC44: Live in New Haven, CT, 2003 (2010), 2 discs, $19.99
j) Discipline, 40th Anniversary Series (2011), $22.99
k) KCCC45: Live in Toronto, 1974 (2011), 2 discs, $19.99
l) Larks' Tongues In Aspic Boxset (2012), 15 discs, $125
m) KCCC46: Live at the Marquee, 1971 (2012), 2 discs, $19.99
n) The Road to Red (2013), 24 discs, $225
o) Starless (2014), 24 discs, $215
p) Live at the Orpheum (2014), $18.99
q) The Elements of King Crimson (2014), 2 discs, $25
r) THRAK BOX (2015), 16 discs, $135
s) The Elements of King Crimson (2015), 2 discs, $25
t) 2014 Live EP (2015), $25
u) Live in Toronto (2016), 2 discs, $17.99

TOTAL: $1067.87

New releases:

a) Jakszyk, Fripp and Collins: A Scarcity of Miracles – A King Crimson ProjeKct (2011), $13.59

Is $1000 per Crimson fan for variations of the old songs "riding the nostalgia wave"? Are they "milking the cash cow"? Is DGM's entire business case predicated on old material? Who can say...

Henry

[bondegezou]

KC were defunct for a decade, if we exclude a short reunion for the 40th Anniversary Tour in 2009, so comparing the amount of studio albums makes no sense. Hence let us stick to assessing the recent live releases from the prog bands riding the nostalgia wave.

King Crimson:

a) 40th Anniversary Tour Box (2009)
b) Live at the Orpheum (2014)
c) Live in Toronto (2015)

Van der Graaf Generator:

a) Live at the Paradiso (2007)
b) Live at Metropolis Studios (2010)
c) Merlin Atmos (2013)

YES:

a) In the Present: Live from Lyon (2011)
b) Like It Is: At the Bristol Hippodrome (2014)
c) Like It Is: At the Mesa Arts Center (2015)

So, King Crimson was defunct 2010-2013 and yet have released as many live albums as VdGG and Yes, who have both continued throughout that period. And this proves your point how?

Henry

[Jay.Dee]

King Crimson physical releases predominantly of old material since 2009

So, King Crimson was defunct 2010-2013 and yet have released as many live albums as VdGG and Yes, who have both continued throughout that period. And this proves your point how?

You're conflating archival material released by a band's label with the new material recorded and released by the current incarnation of the band. Indeed, the archival releases are hot these days and virtually all artists take part in the boom, but what does it have to do with the band's current activity?

You've assessed the band's current form on the basis of its release that got recorded recently, and then compared it to its peers, so maybe let's compare apples to apples. See my previous post.

If you want to bring up KC's archival boxes then the valid comparison is Progeny or the recent BBC set by VdGG. Here you're right - King Crimson have a hell lot more archival recordings on the market (and I am fine with it), and I only wish that I could see more live tapes from YES or VdGG's prime officially released.

[bondegezou]

You're conflating archival material released by a band's label with the new material recorded and released by the current incarnation of the band. Indeed, the archival releases are hot these days and virtually all artists take part in the boom, but what does it have to do with the band's current activity?

You've assessed the band's current form on the basis of its release that was recorded recently, and then compared it to their peers, so maybe let's compare apples to apples. If you want to bring up KC's archival boxes then the valid comparison is Progeny or the recent BBC set by VdGG. Here you're right - King Crimson have a hell lot more of archival recordings on the market (and I am fine with it), and I wish that I could see more live tapes from YES or VdGG's prime officially released.

I've never taken to VdGG myself, but I'd happily see more Yes archival recordings (and indeed more are coming). I bought some of those Crimson releases and don't begrudge the existence of those I didn't. King Crimson are meeting a demand in the marketplace and have led the way in this endeavour.

I wonder if we can put a name to this endeavour, this activity of mining the archives for material to release, and playing the same old songs live. Does "riding the nostalgia wave" fit? Can we perhaps therefore say that King Crimson show how to ride the nostalgia wave par excellence? Are they the Jay Moriarty of nostalgia?

Henry

[Facelift]

Quick thoughts on the new King Crimson live album, Live in Toronto a 2015 recording by the new septet, playing a set ranging from “The Court of the Crimson King” to some new material. This isn't a bad album, but it is a long way from being a great album. The five albums I got before this one happened to be:

Delta Saxophone Quartet with Gwilym Simcock: Crimson! (a mostly covers album of Crimson pieces)
The Morgaua Quartet: Atom Heart Mother is on the Edge (a Japanese string quartet doing prog pieces, including “Red” and “Peace-Fallen Angel including Epitaph”)
Eddie Jobson: Four Decades
UK: Curtain Call
Zakir Hussain: Making Music

... and they're all better.

The latest incarnation of King Crimson has abandoned the band's usual approach and gone for the nostalgia market that dominates the prog rock scene, a market the band have already targeted with umpteen mega-deluxe collectors' edition re-releases. In that context, after several bank-account-busting box sets, this release is value for money, a 2CD release for just £10.

Some Crim fans have argued that it's not nostalgia because of magic reasons to do with Crimson being different. I understand why bands focus on nostalgia. There's nothing wrong with nostalgia. The set/track list offers your 'greatest hits', so to speak, of King Crimson, save for skipping over the 1980s. These are good picks.

There is a little bit of new material. Ignoring the filler, like the intro soundscape, the new pieces amount to just “Radical Action to Unseat the Hold of Monkey Mind”/“Meltdown”. Classic bands are in a bind: dismissed as nostalgia if they don't play new pieces, but criticised when the new pieces aren't up to scratch. Well, yes, the same applies here: “Radical Action...” is generic, Crimson-by-numbers. “Meltdown” is the better piece and a chance for Jakszyk to bring something of himself to the role. It mixes a bit of Jakszyk's style with a Crimson sound. But it also feels a bit unfinished. “Meltdown” could be compared to UKZ's “Radiation”, but the latter is the better piece of music and a better piece of Crimson music.

We do get two new drum trio pieces as well, but neither does all that much with the format. “Banshee Legs Bell Hassle” is over before its begun. “Hell Hounds of Krim” bores. Compare One, the album by Pete Lockett's Network of Sparks feat. Bill Bruford, for what a multi-percussion piece can do.

By the way, the ever more boastful and grandiose titles, like “Radical Action to Unseat the Hold of Monkey Mind” and “Hell Hounds of Krim”, ring ever more hollow when paired with below-average offerings!

But the core problem with this recording is a certain stilted, lumpen quality to the performance. Just in places, but enough that I spent as much time remembering better versions of these songs than coming back to these versions. It's the Wetton-era material that seems to suffer most, like “Red” and “Easy Money”, both lacking bite (compare Wetton and Jobson on Curtain Call), although “Level Five” also drags. Some have suggested this is a result of the band using a click track and the challenges of keeping the three drummers in sync. If that is the case, it wasn't a price worth paying.

The inclusion of three percussionists and of Collins does add a distinct flavour to the affair and they are sometimes used well, like as on parts of “Larks 1” and “Red”. Collins is good on “Starless”. Yet despite the unusual line-up, the material is not radically re-worked: compare what the Delta Saxophone Quartet + Simcock do, or The Morgaua Quartet.

The band are best on the material from the first four albums, a reminder at this time of what Greg Lake could do, but why not just crack out your old 21st Century Schizoid Band albums if you want to hear Collins and Jaksyzk play those classics?

What the band does well is give a sense of unity to the diverse Crimson back catalogue. There is this almost steampunk sound the line-up brings across piece, uniting the likes of “Larks 1”, “Pictures of a City” and “VROOOM”. At best, we get some solid performances: “The ConstruKction of Light” and “The Letters/Sailor's Tale” stood out for me.

If the unity of the band, a certain crispness, is missing, the individuals play well when considered separately. Jakszyk sings well. I'd single out Levin for praise, and why he isn't allowed a greater role in coming up with new material, I don't know.

A great jazz musician once said that music is a reflection of who and where you are. If that is the case, then this King Crimson is about Fripp's comfort. Nothing here challenges our idea of what Crimson can be... which thus means it misses the whole point of being King Crimson.

I am reacting against some overly hagiographic reviews of the album and have written more of negatives than positives. This isn't a bad album. You get some classic Crimson played by some classic Crimson members (plus a fine substitute). If you want a more radical deconstruction of old Crimson numbers, I do recommend the Delta Saxophone Quartet's Crimson! If you want some '70s classics played with more fire, Four Decades and Curtain Call are now available at a reasonable price on iTunes after an earlier Japanese physical release.

LOL.

Someone is just jealous. If only Yes had the artistic credibility of King Crimson, instead of being a pathetic joke...

[Jay.Dee]

I wonder if we can put a name to this endeavour, this activity of mining the archives for material to release, and playing the same old songs live. Does "riding the nostalgia wave" fit?

Of course, but there are two different activities and the entities behind each: one is a vault label and another one is the currently active edition of a band. I would rather not conflate them, even if the target audience may be largely shared.

Hence if you review the recent live recording of the current edition of KC and ponder over its surprisingly positive reception, you need to juxtapose it with other recent live recordings made by other current editions of legacy prog bands. That is its proper context, not Road to Red, Progeny or the general amount/total price of similar archival boxes from the past decades.

[Spiral]

playing the same old songs live

There's playing the same old songs. There's also playing different old songs. There's also arranging and playing old songs in new ways with new combinations of musicians. There are also any number of ways to combine or overlap those things.

[Lino]

I was at one of the Toronto shows. I enjoyed it, but I also thought that for the setlist they played...there wasn't a need for 3 drummers.

[Nijinsky Hind]

My impressions are basically i *DON'T* want to hear ANY renditions of older material...just forge forward...the majority are NEW-ish in this band in a 2000 sense (Collins, Jakko, Rieflin, and Harrison), so focus on what THEY can contribute.

RF'll be 70 this year...TOPS i can see him continuing to do this for another 5 years and that's being generous...at large i fear he's/they've (?) run out of ideas judging by RATUTHOMM II (slow down the tempo add or subtract a beat or two)...

Monkey mind almost sounds like a compilation of ToaPP interlocking ideas sewn together in haste... A bit nostalgic in its own right. Good, but not exactly NEW. I do love the drumming in it.


meltdown sounds great but the lyrics are pretty much guestbook scoldings and aphorisms. I wouldn't be surprised if RF wrote those lyrics himself.

[R_burke]

I too would like to see new music from King Crimson, but the concert venue isn't where you go and expect to hear new music. Unless a band has something recorded and not yet released it is extremely rare to hear somthing that hasn't already been recorded and released. Live in Toronto is first and foremost a live concert recording and to think it should be a release of new material is grasping for straws.

[Haruspex Carnage]

Monkey mind almost sounds like a compilation of ToaPP interlocking ideas sewn together in haste... A bit nostalgic in its own right. Good, but not exactly NEW. I do love the drumming in it.


meltdown sounds great but the lyrics are pretty much guestbook scoldings and aphorisms. I wouldn't be surprised if RF wrote those lyrics himself.

They could take the Scarcity stuff and breath SOME more life into it plus there are leftovers from those sessions like Separation...and again it all IS sort of redundant at this point, but i'd rather it be new than hear the IMO lousy versions of EZ, Epitaph, Court etc so the oldies can get their rocks off one last time.

[Dave (in MA)]

I too would like to see new music from King Crimson, but the concert venue isn't where you go and expect to hear new music. Unless a band has something recorded and not yet released it is extremely rare to hear somthing that hasn't already been recorded and released. Live in Toronto is first and foremost a live concert recording and to think it should be a release of new material is grasping for straws.

Until the '90s KC, they'd tend to play stuff live before it appeared on an album.

[bondegezou]

Of course, but there are two different activities and the entities behind each: one is a vault label and another one is the currently active edition of a band. I would rather not conflate them, even if the target audience may be largely shared.

You may consider them separately or together, however you wish, but given the target audience is "largely shared", given releases like the Elements boxes bring together material from the vaults and by the current line-up, I see a unitary business model and a desire by Fripp for the activities to be seen together.

Hence if you review the recent live recording of the current edition of KC and ponder over its surprisingly positive reception, you need to juxtapose it with other recent live recordings made by other current editions of legacy prog bands. That is its proper context, not Road to Red, Progeny or the general amount/total price of similar archival boxes from the past decades.

In my review, really just some thoughts thrown together, I made only passing reference to any archival boxsets and made more comparison to some other "recent live recordings made by other current editions of legacy prog bands" (specifically Curtain Call and Four Decades). So, that's the juxtaposition you wanted, isn't it?

My later reference to the $1000+ a Crimson fan has paid was in reaction to a broader point under discussion. One of the things I like from threads on ProgressiveEars.com is that the discussion can move around and spread into other areas.

Whatever, I'm glad we're in agreement that Crimson does nostalgia.

Henry

[Nijinsky Hind]

All said, it's an incredible live album containing a wonderful back catalog presented in a new and interesting way. I have a feeling new material is right around the corner. As a longtime fan who quite often speaks his mind before actually thinking... I am more than content with the output to date.

I wonder if anyone else has noticed the 2 note starless guitar solo being quite different and shorter than previous versions. It lacks intensity for some reason. Nitpicking again.

[jkelman]

meltdown sounds great but the lyrics are pretty much guestbook scoldings and aphorisms. I wouldn't be surprised if RF wrote those lyrics himself.

AFaIK, he didn't.

[jkelman]

I enjoyed it, but I also thought that for the setlist they played...there wasn't a need for 3 drummers.

Based on what?

Just wondering. I find it interesting that folks say things like "they don't need three drummers" when the founding premise of this incarnation was absolute that: three drummers.

Worth all due respect, you're saying you know better than the musician who brought this incarnation together, and the drummer who has written the majority of the drum arrangements?

I dunno, I guess I would never presume to know better than the artist about what the music needs. But maybe that's just me.

[Nijinsky Hind]

AFaIK, he didn't.

We may never know. Boy these poor bands get the microscope don't they. Lol.

[Sturgeon's Lawyer]

H'mmm.

Now, I'm saying this not having heard the album - my copy arrives Thursday, according to Amazon - but I *did* see this lineup in '14, and I heard music dramatically reinterpreted from the studio versions. The renditions of "Starless" and "LTIA1" alone were each easily worth the price of entry, especially the former, where the slow buildup of tension and final release were nearly unbearable in their intensity. I saw musicians, each individually masters of their instruments, creating music in the moment. I saw three drummers acting as, well, one drummer with twelve limbs, as someone said. (I didn't see as much as I'd have liked to see because of the asshole three rows down who stood up and danced throughout the entire show...) I heard 40-year-old music reimagined for the 21st century, and as relevant to me now as it was when I was in my teens.

Is it possible that this band released a mediocre live album?

Of course it is; but if so, then something's gone terribly wrong in the past two years.

It is also possible that someone's got their knickers in a twist because it wasn't what they wanted.

Dig this:

King Crimson have never been about giving the punters what they wanted, and if you wanted all-new music, you're a punter.

Also: King Crimson have never been about changing what they are doing, and they've been doing mostly new music for every incarnation for going-on-fifty years. If they've changed that, too, that's in the spirit of changing what they're doing.

[Mister Triscuits]

I was at one of the Toronto shows. I enjoyed it, but I also thought that for the setlist they played...there wasn't a need for 3 drummers.

Thought exercise: Why does this edition of King Crimson have three drummers? Is it because Fripp figures it will keep people's eyes off him? Is it because Fripp has too much money and wants to pay two extraneous band members? Answers on a postcard to Willyfred, 1 Crim Towers, Bredd'n'buddah, Dorset.

It's obvious that none of the old material needs three drummers, since it was originally recorded with just one, or in some cases two. I'm not sure that the experiment is 100% successful--this lineup does sacrifice an element of swing, even in "Pictures of a City"--but there's some really thrilling stuff on Toronto where all three are in full flight, playing very distinct parts. The new approach does require a new and different way of listening--we're just not used to hearing not just that density but that kind of activity from that part of the band--and it does come at the cost of a certain stiffness in parts that used to flow. Is it worth it? I say hell yes!

The "nostalgia" tag, though, is a cheap shot. This isn't a legacy band trotting out its old hits for the umpteenth time. Crimson never really had any hits, and by eliminating all of the Belew-era vocal repertoire, they've ruled out most of their best-known songs and long-standing concert staples. A nostalgic Crimson certainly wouldn't ditch "Heartbeat," "Sleepless," "Elephant Talk," "Thela Hun Ginjeet," etc. King Crimson has long been a band that was notorious for almost entirely disavowing the pre-Discipline repertoire. Bondegezou chides the KC for not "challeng[ing] our idea of what Crimson can be," and yet this sudden turnaround of embracing the '60s-'70s material is itself a reinvention of the band's nature. A nostalgia band would of course have played the old songs straight, not come up with a bizarre and unique instrumental format. The criticism in the review that the septet lineup--still a rock band, after all--doesn't rework the material as drastically as the arrangements for chamber ensembles is ridiculous and irrelevant.