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Thread: AAJ Review: King Crimson, Live in Toronto, Queen Elizabeth Theatre November 20, 2015

  1. #26
    Member Haruspex Carnage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiral View Post
    Me too. I don't think the article said anything about which was the cause and which was the effect: "With Jakszyk handling the vocals, this is the first time in decades where it's been possible to include certain songs in the repertoire." I'm not sure that's the right word. I don't doubt it's possible for Adrian to sing those songs, but I do doubt that he really has the right voice to pull most of them off.


    Largely agreed. I'd say Larks' 1, Red Nightmare, Vrooom, TCoL and L5 belong on that list, and Red gets maybe halfway there.
    The tempo shift although different on Red makes it sluggish, and VROOM's honky-tonk kind of lounge vibe feels cheapened to me...Collins' contributions to the old material don't do much for me...outside of The Letters, he plays too in really...i'm really not sure why Theo Travis wasn't offered the role instead, at least it would be a more consistent and modern choice? i have head-scratching stories from camp from TL about Collins' role in the band. But again that whole, nostalgia thing? i don't know. It would be one thing if they just played new stuff from Scarcity onwards with him there but to me it just feels sort of tacked on and not really essential or adding lots having him in the band.

  2. #27
    God, I love when people discuss musicians as if they were just sound making machines to be mixed and matched, and not actual human beings.

    "i'm really not sure why Theo Travis wasn't offered the role instead" is just... I don't know what it is.

    It comes back around to this in every discussion of this lineup. Why are these musicians that want to play together playing together, instead of some other combination of musicians that I made up in my head?

  3. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by jamesmanzi View Post
    God, I love when people discuss musicians as if they were just sound making machines to be mixed and matched, and not actual human beings.

    "i'm really not sure why Theo Travis wasn't offered the role instead" is just... I don't know what it is.

    It comes back around to this in every discussion of this lineup. Why are these musicians that want to play together playing together, instead of some other combination of musicians that I made up in my head?
    Haha, spot on! It's King Crimson, and they are out touring and releasing a CD and then soon a DVD! HURRAYYYYY!!!!!

    For me, ANY Crim is better than none. With the history of Crimson, why would any lineup surprise? Sorry, I love Belew - it was my favorite era of the band, but I welcome the change personally. An entirely different musical direction to me required a different lineup. And you can bet the house that if Belew was picked for the lineup you'd find a whole thread of detractors. For me, this is a remarkable undertaking and I intend to fully enjoy it as long as it carries on.
    "I want to be someone, who someone would want to be." Marillion

  4. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by chalkpie View Post
    Loved the concert, hopefully love the disc too
    If you loved the concert, you ought to, since it's a warts-and-all copy of the show, with only one tiny edit, as I mentioned, reducing the time between the "no photos" announcement and when Tony Levin and Mel Collins arrive onstage to improvise with Fripp's soundscape.

    It's a corker

  5. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Zalmoxe View Post
    Mr. Declan Colgan is spot on. I was not at the concert, but hearing the album I want to shoot myself for missing it.
    He's a great writer; he's the one who wrote that terrific history of the music business, 1969-2009, using King Crimson's history as an example and talking about how the various media changed things. This was printed as part of the liner to the ITCotKC six-disc box set. I only wish it would be reprinted in another vehicle so more people could read it; it was really, really revealing.

  6. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave (in MA) View Post
    No, it just seems on Orpheum they wait a little too long and the ensuing crowd noise seems to lessen the impact of going straight into Sailor's Tale. I'm not suggesting that they remove the cymbal-heavy drum intro at all.
    You'll be happy, then, to hear it's not like that at all on Live in Toronto, Dave. It's a very short gap...I've not actually measured, but seems almost immediate to me with the Toronto show.

  7. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave (in MA) View Post
    Hi John, I can try getting screenshots later, but I just tried going to the URL

    "http://www.allaboutjazz.com/king-crimson-live-in-toronto-queen-elizabeth-theatre-november-20-2015-by-john-kelman.php"

    In Chrome, IE and Firefox (on Windows) and Chrome (on Linux).

    On Windows, I get no "More Articles" section or comments on Chrome or IE, but on Firefox and on Chrome (Linux), it works as you'd expect.

    Chrome on my Android phone is also missing the More Articles section and comments.
    Are you signed in? At the top right of the page, does it say "Sign In" or "Hi, Dave"?

    I'm not involved with the back end anymore, but I do think you need to be signed into your All About Jazz account, so perhaps that's the problem?

  8. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Spiral View Post
    I can see it too, although to me Adrian's and Jakko's tones of voice are really what decide the question, more than their Englishness or lack thereof.
    I do seem to recall, though, someone in the Crimson camp commenting that this was the first Crimson in many a year that was more predominantly, British, as the first decade of the group - especially the first four albums - most certainly was. Doesn't mean an American couldn't sing the material, but somehow (and I do tend to agree) it is more suited to British accents, British phrasing etc.

  9. #34
    Parrots Ripped My Flesh Dave (in MA)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkelman View Post
    Are you signed in? At the top right of the page, does it say "Sign In" or "Hi, Dave"?

    I'm not involved with the back end anymore, but I do think you need to be signed into your All About Jazz account, so perhaps that's the problem?
    I dunno. It looks right on my laptop here at home. Maybe AAJ doesn't like me goofing off at work.

  10. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave (in MA) View Post
    I dunno. It looks right on my laptop here at home. Maybe AAJ doesn't like me goofing off at work.
    It's possible that your business has some impositions that prevent certain things from happening. The comments part of All About Jazz (Disqus) is third-party software, so perhaps your business disallows it from loading. I have heard of certain things being precluded by businesses, and if it works fine at home for you, then that would lead me to believe...

    An interesting fact: AAJ's top hours of traffic are Monday to Friday during business hours, which tells us a lot of our readers are doing it from work

    But it's not All About Jazz disliking it...it's your internal IT department that doesn't like it

  11. #36
    Parrots Ripped My Flesh Dave (in MA)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkelman View Post
    It's possible that your business has some impositions that prevent certain things from happening. The comments part of All About Jazz (Disqus) is third-party software, so perhaps your business disallows it from loading. I have heard of certain things being precluded by businesses, and if it works fine at home for you, then that would lead me to believe...
    I doubt it. I probably just had too many tabs open, or some similar more pedestrian reason.

  12. #37
    Thanks for this excellent review John - this very much expresses my own (less articulate!) feelings about the cd.

    I'm not a CrimHead by any stretch - but this struck me, right from the very first listen, as being a pretty special recording - of a pretty special show. It's maybe not quite got that "Absent Lovers" sense of a unique moment - but still, definitely special.

    I actually like the setlist - but what leaps out of the speakers for me is the sonic dynamics - the band really sound stunning - both their playing, & the way the mix of the instruments has been caputred & reproduced, &, last but by no means least, the "liveliness" of the sound of the band as they've been recorded - listening to this is an immediate & visceral experiece.

  13. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by N_Singh View Post
    As to Ade singing the older stuff, I always thought his version of Cadence and Cascade was gorgeous .
    Yes! And I love his manic signing on schizoid man too

  14. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave (in MA) View Post
    Maybe AAJ doesn't like me goofing off at work.
    Quote Originally Posted by jkelman View Post
    AAJ's top hours of traffic are Monday to Friday during business hours, which tells us a lot of our readers are doing it from work
    It's definitely true for me. Work is when I have the time and I'm stuck at a desk anyway. Dave's IT department, though, should really realize this kind of thing is hardly goofing off. It's essential nourishment, no different from the routine stop at the coffee machine.

  15. #40
    Parrots Ripped My Flesh Dave (in MA)'s Avatar
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    John, i hate to continue this OT, but the issue that I was seeing yesterday is gone. I'm guessing it was on the AAJ side, but it's OK now.

  16. #41
    Parrots Ripped My Flesh Dave (in MA)'s Avatar
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    Spiral, indeed.

  17. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by jkelman View Post
    It's possible that your business has some impositions that prevent certain things from happening. The comments part of All About Jazz (Disqus) is third-party software, so perhaps your business disallows it from loading. I have heard of certain things being precluded by businesses, and if it works fine at home for you, then that would lead me to believe...

    An interesting fact: AAJ's top hours of traffic are Monday to Friday during business hours, which tells us a lot of our readers are doing it from work

    But it's not All About Jazz disliking it...it's your internal IT department that doesn't like it
    You may have accidentally typed in "all about jizz". Easy mistake.

    .
    Still alive and well...

  18. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave (in MA) View Post
    John, i hate to continue this OT, but the issue that I was seeing yesterday is gone. I'm guessing it was on the AAJ side, but it's OK now.
    Well, I can't answer it (a) because I'm no longer involved in the back end; and (b) even when I was, I was managing editor for content and, while I understood/still understand a lot of the underlying technology & architecture (because I was in high tech for over 20 years before this), I had and have nothing to do with the site's technology and/or architecture./

    That said, if folks see a problem and can provide clear explanations (as you did, Dave), I'm happy to report them to founder/publisher Michael Ricci. I may have stepped down as ME, but I'm still very much committed to and invested emotionally in the site.

    Cheers!
    John

  19. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Nijinsky Hind View Post
    You may have accidentally typed in "all about jizz". Easy mistake
    Anyone ever told you that you were a funny guy?

  20. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by per anporth View Post
    Thanks for this excellent review John - this very much expresses my own (less articulate!) feelings about the cd.
    As always, Per, thanks for the kind words.

    I think comparing to Absent Lovers may not be wholly appropriate, only because (and I could be wrong here, so if someone can straighten me out here...) Live in Toronto is pretty much a board recording with absolutely minimal editing/post-production work. I think Absent Lovers was more a
    "produced" live album, no?

    If I am correct, then there will be inherent and intrinsic differences in terms of sound, energy, etc.

    But either way, thanks to you for - and anyone else who has weighed in with - the kind words. They truly encourage me to keep on doing what I'm doing....

  21. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by jkelman View Post
    Anyone ever told you that you were a funny guy?
    Some woodshed humor helps to ease the dead seriousness of a KC thread... But let me tell you from experience... Fripp does not agree.
    Still alive and well...

  22. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by jkelman View Post
    I think comparing to Absent Lovers may not be wholly appropriate, only because (and I could be wrong here, so if someone can straighten me out here...) Live in Toronto is pretty much a board recording with absolutely minimal editing/post-production work. I think Absent Lovers was more a
    "produced" live album, no?

    If I am correct, then there will be inherent and intrinsic differences in terms of sound, energy, etc.
    This is a fair point, of course, John! What I was trying to get at in the comparison (which was certainly not meant to be to the detriment of this new recording, which I think is superb) was, more than the quality of the production as such, the "one off" quality of the show/performance.

    Both the new album & Absent Lovers are documents of complete shows. Bruford, in his wonderful autobiography, talks about how the band themselves were aware that they'd turned in a special show, but that, on hearing the recording, they were almost taken aback by how special it was. Similarly, the liner notes for Live in Toronto talk of this being a special show.

    So, I was trying to make a connection between the two albums on this basis, whilst acknowledging that, for any number of reasons, Live in Toronto may not quite match up to the incredible standard of Absent Lovers.

    (ps - I've sent you a pm about something else - hope this is ok)

  23. #48
    The only difference is that Absent Lovers was compiled from a four-show run. There was the usual mastering and whatnot after the fact, if that's what was meant by "produced," but no overdubs or further tinkering. IIRC that is.

  24. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Spiral View Post
    The only difference is that Absent Lovers was compiled from a four-show run. There was the usual mastering and whatnot after the fact, if that's what was meant by "produced," but no overdubs or further tinkering. IIRC that is.
    Yes, that is what I meant. Produced can mean as little as choosing (and possibly) sequencing the music; pre- or post-production work (including editing, adding effects, compression and more) and mastering.

    I always felt AL was a produced live album, whereas Toronto is largely not (obviously it was mastered, but they just took the entire show, rather than AL, which took what they considered the best version of each song from the four shows).

  25. #50
    Parrots Ripped My Flesh Dave (in MA)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiral View Post
    The only difference is that Absent Lovers was compiled from a four-show run. There was the usual mastering and whatnot after the fact, if that's what was meant by "produced," but no overdubs or further tinkering. IIRC that is.
    Where does this info come from? Everything I can find (though my CD & its booklet are 20 miles away) indicates that it was from July 11th, 1984. Levin in his BLUE tour diary refers to it as: "Absent Lovers" which is a live recording from 1984 of the last show we did before the band broke up".

    The Schizoid Shop says "The last four shows of the 1981-84 King Crimson took place over the two nights of July 10th & 11th 1984 at Le Spectrum in Montreal. The performances on this, the latest King Crimson Archive Release, are drawn from the final night". Were there two 7/10 and 7/11 shows each?

    DGM: https://www.dgmlive.com/tour.htm?art...tour_year=1984 Doesn't really help.

    Bruford's take: "finishing at the Spectrum in Montreal for two dates on July 10th and 11th. The following day Fripp breaks the band up, but the sad occasion is ameliorated somewhat by the cracking live CD, in Bill’s opinion some of the best playing that band ever recorded, eventually released 14 years later in 1998 as “Absent Lovers”.

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