The Enid's RJG to retire from touring & takes a 'swipe' at Steve Wilson!

[bob_32_116]

Well, it took a bit of digging, but I finally found this (for the person that asked about Muso rock, a few pages back):

Muso: a musician, esp a pop musician, regarded as being overconcerned with technique rather than musical content or expression.

I had no clue there was such a thing.

neil

I hadn't heard this term before either, but it makes a lot of sense. I can think of a few artists or bands that it applies to, but I would not apply it to Wilson or any of his band projects. I know some people on the PT forum make this accusation against a couple of his studio or touring musicians - that they are a bit too clever and too fond of showing off. For example when I listen to "Luminol" I always imagine guitarists tossing their hair around and drummers whipping off their shirts and gyrating wildly.

[MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER]

I do too and in light of that I can only chalk it up to the thickness of people's skin and how it varies.

Have we ever said something so bad that someone didn't buy a band's CD and their career was screwed? I doubt it. I seriously doubt we have the reach to do that anyway.

Have we created a buzz that sold CDs for lesser known artists (pretty much anyone in this genre that isn't Big 5 league) and helped to give their careers (and tours) a lift? You better believe it. Repeatedly...

I am sure the glass is half full for many, it's not like everyone shares the thought that prog forums are bad unless they are censored to "utopian heights".

It is what is what it is and I am just glad we are still here doing what we do regardless how it may be perceived. 16 years and running... We have done a whole of a lot of good for this genre regardless by being one of the two best places on the net to talk about these artists' work.

PE is without a doubt, the best prog forum that there is. That doesn't mean that I don't get my feathers ruffled from time to time or that there aren't opinions that I view as short sighted or incorrect. I have even walked away from the forum once or twice. Not due to disagreeing with anyone's opinion but more so because of the negative or condescending tone that some people direct at others. Having a thick skin is one things, but I don't tolerate people who act that way in my personal life, so no reason to deal with it on a prog forum. That said, the site has a great 'ignore' functionality along with my own ability to ignore. The vast majority of people on PE though are interesting and respectful and a lot of the conversations here are really top notch. Now, if only we could do something about right sizing the page balance for any given Yes thread vs virtually any other thread.

That astounds me. I never thought that at all. Sure, there's a few cranky people on here, we've had the occasional sanity-challenged individual, and there's been one or two soap opera episodes. But a "cesspool of hate"? No. Where do they get that from? Even the aggravating guys tend to get treated with a fair amount of patience, if you ask me.

Maybe it was somebody who came on and immediately encountered the wrong person or wrong people. Or some band that came on, immediately started selling themselves aggressively, and got smacked down hard

... or Billy Sherwood and his fan base

but seriously, Sean and Patalena said it best. PE is a whole lot better than most music forums for 1. discovery, and 2. knowledgeable contributors
the ignorant/myopic posters are thankfully few and far between

[Scrotum Scissor]

These are the most sensible words ever written on PE. Thank you.

Except that the sender hardly tends to stick to that maxim himself, of course.

[Onomatopoeic]

Yikes!

After reading that news release, it sounds like Steven Wilson will be doing a 0.1 surround sound mix of the first 2 Enid albums.

Strangely enough, I listened to the RJG solo album Fall Of Hyperion just this past weekend.

[Kcrimso]

Steven Wilson ruined The Enid.

[Scrotum Scissor]

For example, Steven Wilson gets flak from some people for putting Porcupine Tree

[NogbadTheBad]

To someone accustomed to watching Australian Rules footy, soccer seems all very polite and twee.

Well Aussie Rules IS insane.

[moecurlythanu]

"Muso" is a term that has been used by the British music press for ages.

[bob_32_116]

"Muso" is a term that has been used by the British music press for ages.

I am very familiar with the term "muso", but not "muso rock".

[moecurlythanu]

I am very familiar with the term "muso", but not "muso rock".

It's probably a new Progarchives sub-genre.

[Scott Bails]

I am very familiar with the term "muso", but not "muso rock".

What kind of rock would think thank that musos make?

[zombywoof]

I don't understand the drive to announce you're retiring if you're a musician. It's not like he's going to get a gold watch, so why not leave your options open?

So he can announce his comeback in a few years!

[Plasmatopia]

But your first point - go after the message not the messenger - is absolutely what would prevent so many flare-ups on so many forums. That, and another thing which I believe to be a truth: if someone criticizes (or even hates) an artist you love, they are not criticizing you or your tastes. They just don't like (or hate) the artist. I see this far too often, where folks believe that if someone criticizes an artist they love, then it stands to reason that they are therefore criticizing you because you don't feel the same way.

Not to pick on your post, but more the idea...the word hate being applied to music. My feelings about bands, artists, or music never involve the term hate, which is reserved for far more serious things. Perhaps the idea of hate has been diluted or twisted or misused so long in relation to sports teams that it has lost any real meaning...

[Plasmatopia]

Well, it took a bit of digging, but I finally found this (for the person that asked about Muso rock, a few pages back):

Muso: a musician, esp a pop musician, regarded as being overconcerned with technique rather than musical content or expression.

I had no clue there was such a thing.

neil

Never heard that distinction. I have only heard it used (by people who didn't necessarily pay any particular attention to music) to refer to musicians.

[Patelena396]

Yes!


There are plenty of sites worse than PE...I find it, generally, a very positive place to be, barring a few folks - and you get that anywhere.

But your first point - go after the message not the messenger - is absolutely what would prevent so many flare-ups on so many forums. That, and another thing which I believe to be a truth: if someone criticizes (or even hates) an artist you love, they are not criticizing you or your tastes. They just don't like (or hate) the artist. I see this far too often, where folks believe that if someone criticizes an artist they love, then it stands to reason that they are therefore criticizing you because you don't feel the same way.

It's rarely true. More often than not, they aren't making any statement about you; they just don't like the artist's music.

Cheers!
John

I think your point is completely reasonable when the circumstances play out as described on your post. The instances where defensiveness and arguments seem to start is when dissenting opinion is stated as if it is fact. Add to that the "fact" being presented in a brash or condescending way and it often leads to less than friendly chatter. Though I know some people are overly sensitive, I don't think many really care if someone disagrees with their opinion on something. Overall, I believe the response to an opposite opinion often depends on how the opposing message is delivered.

[bob_32_116]

I Overall, I believe the response to an opposite opinion often depends on how the opposing message is delivered.

I'm not sure I agree with that.




Heh.

[Patelena396]

I'm not sure I agree with that.




Heh.

Touché and all good as your opposing response was presented in a courteous fashion. 😀

[Jefferson James]

I can sort-of understand his criticism of SW.

To me SW's lyrics are more about observations of other people and situations, and while I enjoy a good story as much as the next guy, with music I prefer more of a personal approach. For example, a band like IZZ hits that sweet spot for me, lyrically.

It's just a personal thing for me; I have a friend who started out writing killer baroque power-pop and over the years gravitated to more of a storyteller thing with way, way simpler, almost background music, but at the same time his lyrics became simply spectacular (check out Stew), so for that kind of approach my standards are pretty high. SW does a great job finding situations that many folks can relate to on a deeply personal level but for me, it's a bit detached.

Perhaps that is what Godfrey meant by being forgettable?

As for SW's music, I've never found it to scratch my peculiar prog-rock itch; I can justify my criticisms but that's best left for another thread.

As for Godfrey's sweeping comments about today's prog bands in general, I took it to heart. Maybe he's right, you know? The irrefutable fact in my case is it's a blast to write music like that, so fuck him.

seems like it's just for their experience of creating the music itself and not for an objective higher purpose.

To me the two are utterly entwined and inseparable; the act of creating music I personally consider challenging is the higher purpose in my case. My band has said we are in this to write positive music as opposed to the dark, sad and lonely subject matter SW pretty much exclusively draws upon, so in an obvious way, that is our higher purpose, but it's just a statement on a press release. The real proof is in the songs and how people have responded to them.

I am not sure I can separate the act of creation from the objective higher purpose of said creation.

[undergroundrailroad]

Godfrey is responding to what he's exposed to. Obviously, there are tons of releases every year that are worthy of being taken seriously on a musical level and that offer the memorable and the meaningful. Godfrey's not like us obsessed genre addicts who are trying to unearth diamonds out of these many obscure releases. But as he's touring and experiencing the scene, he sees all the neo-prog and post-neo-prog and retro prog acts that bubble to the surface, the ones that headline festivals. Compared to the heady days of 1973-1974 when the Enid were starting out, it's pretty paltry pickings in that milieu if you're looking for something with depth and/or innovation. SW is about as good as it gets on that level of visibility. I honestly think a lot of people would generally agree with his sentiments if he hadn't pointed the laser beam at that particular artist.

I'm sure ennui sets in after forging a path for so long under such adversity. While Magma for instance, who share a somewhat similar cult band profile, inspired tons of bands to emulate them, the Enid didn't spawn a "scene." They're still an island. Nobody could emulate The Enid because it would take a level of musical knowledge requiring years of intense study with serious mentors. And then your band has to have a lot of gear and practice A LOT to pull it off live.

[Patelena396]

I think the problem with RJG comments is that there is a significant air of sour grapes to them. There is nothing wrong with feeling that way in the sense that I am sure he is proud of the Enid's music and probably wonders why more people haven't gravitated to it. In a commercial sense, SW is one of the most successful of the more recent prog artists out there. It seems apparent that RJG is scratching his head about that, but the way that his comments read, they come across as a bit insulting to SW as well as any fan of his music.

[strawberrybrick]

Except that the sender hardly tends to stick to that maxim himself, of course.

We would do well to abide by them. After all, prog rock should not be a competition...

[StevegSr]

I very sorry this gent has an Alzheimer's diagnosis, but I never liked the Enid. As to this place having a bad rep, who has time to discuss such trivial things? Trolls?

[Scrotum Scissor]

I am sure he is proud of the Enid's music and probably wonders why more people haven't gravitated to it. In a commercial sense, SW is one of the most successful of the more recent prog artists out there. It seems apparent that RJG is scratching his head about that, but the way that his comments read, they come across as a bit insulting to SW as well as any fan of his music.

So, in your final analysis this is all somehow a case of artistic envy? From a significant character throughout 45 years of British progressive music development, a man with fairly heavy academic credentials in the art of composition and arrangement - towards a recently grownupstart who began his career fantasizing around oldies (such as The Enid) through his cheap headphones in the attic room of his mum's house?

Somehow I don't think so. It isn't Willy's "fault" that Godfrey pinpointed him for his rant this time around; it could just as well have been some other established or reasonably well-known figure. But yes, Godfrey most probably hasn't bothered to take in much of SW's music - but then again, is there supposedly a natural reason why he should be expected to? SW's standing with *some* quarters of the so-called "progressive community" implies nothing but an idiomatic identity imposed by his audience's perceived connections of disparate threads; there's hardly any parallel whatsoever between the respective crafts, conditions or agendas of SW and Godfrey himself.

[StevegSr]

SW is the definition of "Muso Rock" IMO, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. His aloof persona and lyrics mixed with mechanical muscle memory is what draws a great many people to him. Agree or disagree?

[JJ88]

I don't agree. I think Dream Theater define it much more than he does...never letting a song get in the way of a solo, rather than the other way round.