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Thread: Secret symbology

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    Secret symbology

    Inspired by my North & South, East & West thread.

    I asked:

    BTW, I'm sure there are some studiers of symbology and theology (like myself) amongst y'all, who know why we say north, south, east, west more often than not, why it is that order that trips off the tongue most readily, rather than the clockwise order north, east, south, west or any other combination. I will not reveal until a few have answered.


    And to ny delight someone answered correctly very quickly, Rick Robson when he wrote "the same movement when the catholic people make the whole cross gesture."

    To which I replied

    CORRECT!!! I am a Roman Catholic, and this is age-old knowledge amongst us. Now, when a Catholic blesses him/herself (makes the sign of the cross) it is made from an observer's viewpoint i.e. as if the Catholic blessing him/herself is the cross - important to remember for the east & west.

    So, North (Father) head; South (Son) heart; East (Holy) left shoulder; West (Spirit) right shoulder.

    I then included a second ritual, the significance of which, many protestants might never notice:
    Four fingers of right hand is how a Catholic blesses himself; thumb and first two fingers of right hand (3 digits to represent the Holy Trinity) is how an Eastern Orthodox Christian blesses himself.

    There was the famous scene in the film Zorba the Greek about this, when the locals in the Orthodox church saw a Catholic woman in church bless herself with four fingers and to them backwards i.e. N,S,E,W
    Because apart from the difference in the digits used, the Orthodox touch the right shoulder first not the left. N,S,W,E

    So, the next ones;
    1. Who knows why the fish was a symbol for Christians in the very early days of Christianity?
    2. Why is the footrest on an Orthodox Cross tilted in that direction? Up at right, down at left (as viewed from the cross i.e. Jesus right and left)
    3. Why are left and right in heraldry reversed for the observer? Sinister (which means left refers to the right of the shield as you look at it) Dexter (which means right, refers to the left of the shield as you look at it)? (answer is already given above in No. 2)

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    Member Sputnik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterG View Post
    1. Who knows why the fish was a symbol for Christians in the very early days of Christianity?
    It's a Greek symbol that somehow translates to "Jesus Christ, Son of God and, Savior." I used to have a patch that had all the underlying Greek letters displayed that were abbreviated "Ichthus," thus deriving the fish symbol, but I can't remember all of those. My Greek is rusty.

    Also, I've always personally preferred this one:

    images.jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterG View Post
    2. Why is the footrest on an Orthodox Cross tilted in that direction? Up at right, down at left (as viewed from the cross i.e. Jesus right and left)
    Has something to do with who was to the left and right of Jesus on the cross, but I've forgotten the details.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterG View Post
    3. Why are left and right in heraldry reversed for the observer? Sinister (which means left refers to the right of the shield as you look at it) Dexter (which means right, refers to the left of the shield as you look at it)? (answer is already given above in No. 2)
    This I have no idea.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sputnik View Post
    It's a Greek symbol that somehow translates to "Jesus Christ, Son of God and, Savior." I used to have a patch that had all the underlying Greek letters displayed that were abbreviated "Ichthus," thus deriving the fish symbol, but I can't remember all of those. My Greek is rusty.
    Correct Bill, the Jesus Fish, also known as an Ichthys (from the ancient Greek word for fish). IXÈYÓ is an acronym created from the first letter of the words that mean “Jesus Christ, God’s Son is Savior.”

    IXEYO

    I – Iota for Iesous - Greek for Jesus
    X – Chi for Christos - Greek for Christ
    È – Theta for Theou - Greek for God
    Y – Upsilon for Yios/Huios - Greek for Son
    Ó – Sigma for Soter - Greek for Savior

    The XP symbol found on vestments and school uniforms for example is also Greek, and is called the Chi-Rho, being the first two letters of Christ in Greek. My Catholic primary school blazer had the Chi-Rho on the breast pocket and it was the cap badge as well.

    Last edited by PeterG; 02-09-2016 at 04:39 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sputnik View Post
    Has something to do with who was to the left and right of Jesus on the cross, but I've forgotten the details.
    Correct, the footrest slants up to the right towards the penitent thief St. Dismas, who was crucified on Jesus' right, and downward toward the unrepentant thief on his left, Gestas, who along with the crowd taunted Jesus. These two thieves aren't found in any of the Books of the New Testament but in the Gospel of Nicodemus.

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    Okay, next few.

    1. Why do the various orders of Bridgettine nuns have five red points on their white crowns?
    2. Which holy order created and still uses the IHS symbol?
    3. Which religious group in Catholicism uses a cross in a circle? But they never wear it or use it publicly.

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    Member Sputnik's Avatar
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    Well, my mom will be happy I got the first one, that's something she taught me when I was a kid. She also got me the patch, which I still have on my old jean jacket, which is covered with vintage patches.

    I must have read the piece about the Orthodox cross in a book on Byzantium I read recently, or some-such work as I've been reading a lot about that period and the Ottoman period recently.

    Bill

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    Fascinating to think that they got as far up as Vienna in 1529 before being beaten by the combined forces of the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nations and the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth. The Lithuanians & Poles have a lot to be proud of because a couple of hundred years early they rescued the Hungarians and stopped the Mongols from invading western Europe.

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    Member Sputnik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterG View Post
    Fascinating to think that they got as far up as Vienna in 1529 before being beaten by the combined forces of the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nations and the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth. The Lithuanians & Poles have a lot to be proud of because a couple of hundred years early they rescued the Hungarians and stopped the Mongols from invading western Europe.
    Totally agree about 1529. Not so sure about the Mongols, who may have run out of steam anyway by the time they got that far. Not taking anything away from the Poles, but there is thinking that the Mongols had spread as far as they practically could by the time they got there and into Asia Minor. Interesting stuff, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterG View Post
    Okay, next few.

    1. Why do the various orders of Bridgettine nuns have five red points on their white crowns?
    2. Which holy order created and still uses the IHS symbol?
    3. Which religious group in Catholicism uses a cross in a circle? But they never wear it or use it publicly.
    Wild guess on #2 would be the Franciscans, who are the first holy order that pop into my head. I have absolutely no idea about the others. I learned a lot about the Beguines when we were in Belgium last year, but I know nothing about the Bridgettines.

    Bill

  9. #9
    This reminds me of spending hours trying to analyze hidden symbols in album cover art. The CD put an end to that. Pinnacle's MELD album cover is chock FULL of interesting shapes and designs in the oil stains on the road, but I'm the only one fascinated by them . My bandmates aren't interested and the artist says I'm imagining them. However, ......

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    Well, I'll clear up this one first

    3. Why are left and right in heraldry reversed for the observer? Sinister (which means left refers to the right of the shield as you look at it) Dexter (which means right, refers to the left of the shield as you look at it)? (answer is already given above in No. 2)

    As I wrote the clue was in No. 2 i.e. Jesus' left and right
    Same as someone making the sign of the cross and exactly the same in heraldry, everything is described from the perspective of the person affected, doing or wearing.
    So heraldry is described from the persepctvie of the shield carrier not the shield observer (i.e.any person looking at a coat of arms) and that quite simply is why left and right (sinister and dexter) to the uninitiated seem to be reversed in heraldry, but aren't. Heraldic descriptions (emblazonments) refer to the left and right of the Knight carrying the shield and that system is still in use.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by PeterG View Post
    2. Which holy order created and still uses the IHS symbol?
    3. Which religious group in Catholicism uses a cross in a circle? But they never wear it or use it publicly.
    #2: the Society of Jesus ("Jesuits")
    #3: Opus Dei
    Cobra handling and cocaine use are a bad mix.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sturgeon's Lawyer View Post
    #2: the Society of Jesus ("Jesuits")
    #3: Opus Dei
    Winner, winner, chicken dinner!

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    The IHS itself though is another kettle of fish. Any two (non-Jesuit) Catholics won't agree on what it means, as there are several acceptable phrases and words attributed to it in various languages.

    The simple fact of the matter though is that within Latin-speaking Christianity in medieval Western Europe, the most common Christogram (Christi Monogramma = monogram of Christ) was "IHS" or "IHC", from the first 3 letters of the Greek name of Jesus, IHΣΟΥΣ, iota-eta-sigma, or ΙΗΣ, which was medieval shorthand for Iesus.

    But with time, lots of backronyms were created for the IHS Christogram, for example:


    Iesus Hominum Salvator = Jesus, Saviour of men
    In Hoc Signo (Vinces) = In This Sign (You Will Conquer)
    Iesus Humilis Societas = Humble Society of Jesus

    In His Service
    I Have Suffered

    First English use of an IHS phrase was in the 1200s

    And this is what the Jesuits say on the matter. The Jesuits use it simply in its original form as the Iesus Christogram.
    "It is popular legend that the IHS stands for the Latin phrase Iesus Hominum Salvator, “Jesus the Savior of (all) Men”. While this is a fine devotion, it is not historically accurate."

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterG View Post
    1. Why do the various orders of Bridgettine nuns have five red points on their white crowns?
    The five red points on their white crowns represent the Five Wounds of Jesus.

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    Member Sputnik's Avatar
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    I feel like I'm in catechism class. I'm getting out before some nun raps me on the knuckles with a ruler for being naughty. The one with the crown looks pleasant enough, but you never know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arabicadabra View Post
    This reminds me of spending hours trying to analyze hidden symbols in album cover art. The CD put an end to that. Pinnacle's MELD album cover is chock FULL of interesting shapes and designs in the oil stains on the road, but I'm the only one fascinated by them . My bandmates aren't interested and the artist says I'm imagining them. However, ......
    I'm totally with you there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sputnik View Post
    I feel like I'm in catechism class. I'm getting out before some nun raps me on the knuckles with a ruler for being naughty. The one with the crown looks pleasant enough, but you never know.
    The gliding nun in The Blues Brothers, what a great scene.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sputnik View Post
    The one with the crown looks pleasant enough
    She is very pleasant. She's German and I've met her.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by PeterG View Post
    The five red points on their white crowns represent the Five Wounds of Jesus.
    They always talk about the "five wounds," the nail holes and the spear hole - they always leave out the wounds made by the Scourge and the Crown of Thorns.
    Cobra handling and cocaine use are a bad mix.

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    Estimated Prophet notallwhowander's Avatar
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    This is rather more esoteric than secret.

    I though you were going to go all Holy Blood, Holy Grail on us. [emoji6]


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sturgeon's Lawyer View Post
    They always talk about the "five wounds," the nail holes and the spear hole - they always leave out the wounds made by the Scourge and the Crown of Thorns.
    Yea, I've always found that odd too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by notallwhowander View Post
    This is rather more esoteric than secret.

    I though you were going to go all Holy Blood, Holy Grail on us. [emoji6]

    Give it time, I'm just getting warmed up. If you're lucky I'll tell you some secret Opus Dei stuff.

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    Parrots Ripped My Flesh Dave (in MA)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterG View Post
    Looks like a rally cap.

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    Ok, If I say B and J, some of the Brotherhood here might immediately think "Ah ha, PeterG is on the level" (But I'm not) and others will say, "what?"
    BTW, if you are on the level, let those who aren't see if they can work out what the B and J are.

  25. #25
    Estimated Prophet notallwhowander's Avatar
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    A quick search of the interwebs reveal: Jachin and Boaz, pillars in Solomon's Temple, apparently.

    I'm not on the level at all, BTW.
    Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world.

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