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Thread: Genesis albums after Wind & W- How do they rate?

  1. #326
    Since this has turned into a CAS thread I went and listened to it. (Warning: Negative viewpoint to follow.) I had heard parts of it before and wasn't impressed enough to explore it more, but I thought I should give it a chance. Sorry to say that I think it's easily their worst album. Most of the songs just plod along without anything particularly interesting happening. The famous fade-outs are, in fact, horrible. Although the album would be somewhat improved without them, the fact that so many of the songs were faded out while vocals were happening is just indicative of how directionless the songs are anyway. They don't really progress anywhere, so what does it matter if they fade out at just about any time?

    Some here have made a connection between CAS and Genesis' earlier work, but other than a "dark moodiness", I don't really see any, and even then the similarity really isn't there. That's okay, I'm fine with something different. I can handle a different lead singer, but there was very little that stood out in CAS. I realize that albums can grow with repeated listens, but having already noticed how dull the rhythm section usually seemed or how uninteresting the vocal lines were, I don't see the need to keep trying. That said, I did thing "Dividing Line" was pretty good and "Alien Afternoon" had some good spots.
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  2. #327
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    ^^^^^^^
    Thank you, ProgArtist!
    Pretty much my feelings, as well, but expressed much better. I pull out CAS every couple of years to give it a fresh
    listen (usually because of a PE thread), and I find it still doesn't connect with me. I like the dark mood of Wilson's
    voice but the songs aren't doing it for me, and the "dull rhythm section" especially.

    I guess we're "shunners".

  3. #328
    Quote Originally Posted by Gravedigger View Post
    ^^^^^^^
    Thank you, ProgArtist!
    Pretty much my feelings, as well, but expressed much better. I pull out CAS every couple of years to give it a fresh
    listen (usually because of a PE thread), and I find it still doesn't connect with me. I like the dark mood of Wilson's
    voice but the songs aren't doing it for me, and the "dull rhythm section" especially.

    I guess we're "shunners".
    I guess we are!
    ProgEars and other prog posters & prints: http://www.michaelphipps.net
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  4. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by bill g View Post
    He meant commercially. As he says, the last great album was Duke, which he gave 5 stars, and IT he gave 4. Now had that album been:

    Do The Neurotic
    I'd Rather Be You
    Tonight, Tonight, Tonight
    Land of Confusion

    Feeding The Fire
    Domino
    Throwing It All Away (I guess. I do like the chorus anyway)
    The Brazilian

    We'd have a real winner
    Oh Yeah!

    Charles
    Be a loyal plastic robot for a world that doesn't care... Frank Zappa

  5. #330
    Member bill g's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aith01 View Post
    Finding I pretty much agree with everything you said.

    I got CAS about five years after it came out, so it was with relatively "fresh" ears that I heard the music (being oblivious to any of the backlash that might have been associated with it at the time). Some of it is very effective, IMO, and there's plenty of interesting and subtle chord changes to be found that are pure Banks magic. The lead-in to the second half of "One Man's Fool", for example, the way that sustained chord gradually morphs into a different one and the whole tone of the song changes.
    I think we are kindred spirits!!

  6. #331
    Quote Originally Posted by Gravedigger
    I guess we're "shunners".
    Quote Originally Posted by ProgArtist View Post
    I guess we are!
    Ahh, you guys are to blame for the tour cancellation....

    Re the fade outs, even those of us who like the album have stated that was a negative we disliked.
    Last edited by DocProgger; 11-14-2017 at 08:43 PM.

  7. #332
    Member bill g's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocProgger View Post
    Ahh, you guys are to blame for the tour cancellation....

    Re the fade outs, even those of us who like the album have stated that was a negative we disliked.
    Yeah only one song doesn't fade out, and that song (The Dividing Line) sounds incomplete, yet live Rutherford and the other guitarist from Clannad trade solos and it's great. Why they couldn't do something like that on the album is beyond me. Others have nice endings live-would have worked just fine on the album as well

  8. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by bill g View Post
    Yeah only one song doesn't fade out, and that song (The Dividing Line) sounds incomplete, yet live Rutherford and the other guitarist from Clannad trade solos and it's great. Why they couldn't do something like that on the album is beyond me. Others have nice endings live-would have worked just fine on the album as well
    I'm fine with Dividing Line, but more of a Banks keyboard solo or a guitar solo (ie like on the long version of Abacab) as you state would have fleshed the tune out even further. Re the title track, I remember when I first heard it I thought the fade out of the vocals was to convey the idea he was out there in space, calling out, lonely, distance etc. But with the other fade-outs you had to conclude it was probably laziness or a bad decision by Nick Davis (or both).
    Last edited by DocProgger; 11-14-2017 at 09:19 PM.

  9. #334
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKNZW9DGFLY
    I have a boot from this tour but it's incomplete.. watching some of this while I ate breakfast.. granted he didn't have the stage presence of Collins but was it really that bad?

  10. #335
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by happytheman View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKNZW9DGFLY
    I have a boot from this tour but it's incomplete.. watching some of this while I ate breakfast.. granted he didn't have the stage presence of Collins but was it really that bad?
    I only cued in for the Gabriel-era stuff, and it's even worse than I could've imagined... Even the better Collins tracks (Home by the Sea), I didn't' want to check
    even worse, I hadn't realized that Struemer & Chester weren't on the tour either

    Wholey shit; am I ever glad I didn't see that when they came to Brussels.

    I'll keep a better memory of the CAS album than the tour, that's for sure.
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  11. #336
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    ^Yeah that's the one I saw about ten years ago and it's very poor, IMHO. Wilson just doesn't sound that good on Collins' songs- a completely different singer with a different range, so it's not his fault or anything.

    'Home By The Sea' saw the introduction of that strange arrangement where they did the first part in a different key to the second.

    Stuermer went with Collins but I think Thompson was on some kind of hiatus at the time.

  12. #337
    The video bootleg I have on DVD is from the Polish TV broadcast and I am pretty sure its a complete show. I think the Archive Box set DVD used a few tracks from that same show. I think its a good show, something I would have paid to see. I could nitpick some song choices, as they tried to hard to have Wilson cover some of the hits from the Collins era instead of going back and doing more Gabriel era stuff, but to each his own. Stuermer and Chester could have been both tied up doing Collins Dance Into the Light tour, can't remember the timing. Having both of them doing the live shows would have helped ease the transition more.

  13. #338
    Member bill g's Avatar
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    I just prefer Wilson's voice in general to Collins'. There are exceptions, Collins sounds excellent at times (You Might Recall for example, he does some great things with his voice). But generally I find Wilson's voice to be warmer, so I enjoyed his performances of the Collins material. Sometimes Phil does some things live that I find a bit irritating, such as in 'Turn It On Again'.

  14. #339
    Quote Originally Posted by bill g View Post
    I think we are kindred spirits!!
    I'm inclined to agree, Bill.

  15. #340
    Studmuffin Scott Bails's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bill g View Post
    I just prefer Wilson's voice in general to Collins'. There are exceptions, Collins sounds excellent at times (You Might Recall for example, he does some great things with his voice). But generally I find Wilson's voice to be warmer, so I enjoyed his performances of the Collins material. Sometimes Phil does some things live that I find a bit irritating, such as in 'Turn It On Again'.
    Voice-wise, I agree with others that Wilson sounds better on the Gabriel material than he does the Collins material. He just doesn't have Collins' range. But I always liked their choice of using him, as he seems like a decent bridge between the two.

    As is always mentioned when talking about CAS, it would have been greatly improved if the songs had been more "fleshed-out," and I really wanted to hear a follow-up where they had written specifically for Wilson. Oh well.
    Music isn't about chops, or even about talent - it's about sound and the way that sound communicates to people. Mike Keneally

  16. #341
    Member since March 2004 mozo-pg's Avatar
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    I've been a Peter Gabriel die hard fan since 1975. I only missed one tour, the first. I'm so committed I flew to Paris for the warm up gig for Up. At the show, up close, you could see-hear how incredibly strong his voice projected.

    Still, in more recent years, Trick and Wind has surpassed my love of Gabriel era Genesis. The Lamb is pretty close to Wind and Trick though. I digress a bit but I wanted to say l view Collins as a technically superior vocalist compared to Gabriel. Collins' interpretation to Gabriel era Genesis on Seconds Out is simply stellar. I much prefer Collins' over Wilson's voice.

    I don't think I've listened to CAS in the last 10 years. I liked it at first but feel pretty neutral to it now.

    As for the rest of the post-Duke albums I would say it's hit or miss with a total miss for Invisible Touch.



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  17. #342
    Studmuffin Scott Bails's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mozo-pg View Post
    I digress a bit but I wanted to say l view Collins as a technically superior vocalist compared to Gabriel.
    I definitely agree. But I love Gabriel, too.
    Music isn't about chops, or even about talent - it's about sound and the way that sound communicates to people. Mike Keneally

  18. #343
    Ray Wilson sings a few Gabriel songs on his latest CD which I believe is 1/2 new material & 1/2 Genesis material? Briefly glanced it in HMV but didn't pull the trigger!

  19. #344
    Quote Originally Posted by mozo-pg View Post

    Still, in more recent years, Trick and Wind has surpassed my love of Gabriel era Genesis. The Lamb is pretty close to Wind and Trick though. I digress a bit but I wanted to say l view Collins as a technically superior vocalist compared to Gabriel. Collins' interpretation to Gabriel era Genesis on Seconds Out is simply stellar.

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    Agree wholeheartedly with the above, except I would put Selling England just slightly ahead of Wind. But I probably listen more to Trick, Wind and Seconds Out more than any other Genesis albums. The ease at which Phil took over the vocal duties on Trick still amazes me, I never tire of that album. I think Banks and Rutherford are on their absolute A game on those albums too, as well as Hackett of course. I got into Genesis as a teenager right about the time Gabriel was leaving the band, circa 1975 also, so part of it might be my primary initial exposure was Trick, Wind and Seconds Out, then I went back from there.
    Last edited by DocProgger; 11-15-2017 at 03:24 PM.

  20. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by pb2015 View Post
    I think so. I remember it had the intro which I remember seemed silly because it made it sound like the song was going to be about Africa, when it turned out just to be a pop song about a failing relationship.
    I can confirm this is the case, providing the Turn It On Again collection really is the correct edit- certainly the time matches with what's on Wikipedia. It does actually sound better without that bit on the end and the weird fade. Not that the song is great or anything but the edit tightens it up. I agree about the 'African' intro really adding nothing to the song though.

  21. #346
    To try and bring this back to topic.....

    Over the years W&W has been the one I spin the most. In a prior decades it was And then There Were Three. I love the Gabriel era (not really a lamb fan) but I wonder if any of this music will have staying power. Will the next generation be able to get into Trick or Foxtrot or W&W. I've always thought that Selling England would be on top 100 lists for ever, but 90% of the people I know couldn't tell you that Genesis ever had an album by that name.

    Sorry, just ranting. ATTWT, Duke, Three Sides, Shapes, Abacab

  22. #347
    Can't remember if I've posted on this thread so here's my opinion. Really love ATTWT - the first Genesis album I heard 'new'. Duke has some good moments - Heathaze is my fav on there. Don't really like Abacad. Genesis (shapes) was a semi-return to form (I bought Mama the day it came out) - Home by The Sea / Second are great and I like all the side two tracks as well. Don't really care for IT with all the hits and We Can't Dance is mainly unlistenable - it's just so dull, very much like a Phil album of the time (after his good first 3). Even Driving the last Spike is dull, just made long for the sake of it. As others have said, CAS is ruined by the fade-outs, but I really like some of the tracks especially Shipwrecked. Don't like the title track which again doesn't go anywhere.

  23. #348
    Stumbled onto this via Youtube.. I guess this was included with upgraded CD release? More to the point.. not sure what to think of Ray.. early in the video he says he didn't listen to Genesis.. then shortly afterwards he mentions how Mama was one of his favorite songs.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xqEpIjpCNM

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