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Thread: Billy Sherwood goal re new Yes music

  1. #1

    Billy Sherwood goal re new Yes music

    'Roy: One last question for you before I let you go. It sounds like there’s a good fit going on. I have to assume there’s another Yes album in the works.

    Billy: ..."It’s just a matter of the timing and when. Obviously, with Chris’ passing it’s very fresh for everybody so it’s not necessarily a topic going on right now. But the evolution of Yes is always about new music. It’s not just about touring. So I’m excited to think about what could happen and see where it goes on a composition level and a production level. I would love to make a statement with this band that shows vitality and forward thrust. That’s my goal." '

    from http://www.classicrockrevisited.com/...ew.php?id=1140

  2. #2
    NEARfest Officer Emeritus Nearfest2's Avatar
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    Open Your Eyes, Part 2.

    Barf.
    Chad

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    Member Paulrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nearfest2 View Post
    Open Your Eyes, Part 2.

    Barf.
    I'd be curious to see Jon Davison's role in the next one. He did so much heavy lifting on the songs for H&E and I have to believe he knows what the fan reaction has been. Will he double down the next time, or will he say, "Fuck it, Billy. You drive this time." If so then I'm guessing we'll get more of a Conspiracy Pt. 2 rather than another OYE.
    I'm holding out for the Wilson-mixed 5.1 super-duper walletbuster special anniversary extra adjectives edition.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Paulrus View Post
    I'd be curious to see Jon Davison's role in the next one. He did so much heavy lifting on the songs for H&E and I have to believe he knows what the fan reaction has been. Will he double down the next time, or will he say, "Fuck it, Billy. You drive this time." If so then I'm guessing we'll get more of a Conspiracy Pt. 2 rather than another OYE.
    I'm sure that if Billy S. had his druthers, a new Yes alum would be more in the vein of The Ladder and involve a lot of collaborative writing. He gets plenty of chances to write for himself.

  5. #5
    Studmuffin Scott Bails's Avatar
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    I'd be happy if it went more in the direction of The Ladder. Just hoping that they don't use Sherwood to produce, and that they get a "good" producer from outside of the band. Wonder if they'll try to use Horn again? Wonder if they could get Steven Wilson?
    Music isn't about chops, or even about talent - it's about sound and the way that sound communicates to people. Mike Keneally

  6. #6
    My expectations for a new Yes album are about as low they could possibly be considering my two least favorite Yes albums are OYE and H&E, and it seems like the main writers for those albums would be the main writers for the new album. But in that light, all they can do is meet or exceed my expectations!
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  7. #7
    Let's give him a chance. Who knows what the future may bring. Heaven and Earth was disappointing sure. Perhaps Jon Anderson will return with "Tales from Topographic Teakbois" you never know." Heh. Just kidding.

  8. #8
    There's still the unused 15 minute epic that Downes and Davison wrote.

  9. #9
    Member soundchaser93's Avatar
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    From what I gather, and bear in mind this is secondhand info, Jon's original demos for H&E were stripped down and made much less interesting by some of the older band members.

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    I don't think there will ever be a new album. There's nothing in Sherwood's interview that makes me change my mind. Whatever, they made enough good ones for me to enjoy already.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Paulrus View Post
    I'd be curious to see Jon Davison's role in the next one. He did so much heavy lifting on the songs for H&E and I have to believe he knows what the fan reaction has been. Will he double down the next time, or will he say, "Fuck it, Billy. You drive this time." If so then I'm guessing we'll get more of a Conspiracy Pt. 2 rather than another OYE.
    You seem to have somewhat overlooked the three senior members in the band! I don't believe that Howe is going to let Sherwood or Davison have free rein. The next Yes album (if there is one) will be on his terms. And Downes is a prolific writer (albeit not quite as prolific as Sherwood).

    Henry
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by soundchaser93 View Post
    From what I gather, and bear in mind this is secondhand info, Jon's original demos for H&E were stripped down and made much less interesting by some of the older band members.
    Can you say more? I understand the "Believe Again" demo was pretty close to the final album version.

    Henry
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  13. #13
    I don't think Sherwood should produce. His style fits his albums and Circa: but the current Yes line up needs to either be produced by someone outside of the band or they need to produce themselves as a full band. Additionally, the band needs to all be together and write together. Any band will be better served when they are all in the same room hashing out songs.

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    Member Paulrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bondegezou View Post
    I don't believe that Howe is going to let Sherwood or Davison have free rein. The next Yes album (if there is one) will be on his terms.
    Hmm, I'll believe it when I see it. But even so, Steve's contributions to H&E and FFH were good but not great. I'm probably not alone in thinking that "Step Beyond" and "Bumpy Ride" are a couple of the weaker moments in Yes music in many moons. But I do think Steve's heart is in the right place.

    And regarding the other "senior members" (aptly put, btw), I'm not convinced yet that Geoff has embraced Yes as a creative outlet. Probably because he knows his own inclinations run toward Asia and stuff like the Downes-Braid project, neither of which align very well with Yes' musical ethos.

    And Alan? Really?
    I'm holding out for the Wilson-mixed 5.1 super-duper walletbuster special anniversary extra adjectives edition.

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    Something that might matter quite a lot:

    To what extent are Jon D. and Billy S. full partners in Yes, and to what extent are they hired sidemen? Does anybody know? I don't. But I could imagine a situation where, no matter who had written what, how much they'd written, and who got the credit in the booklet, all the songwriters' royalties went into a Yes Corporation, of which the only members are Steve, Alan, and probably their manager or managers. The Stones are famous for doing things like that - Ron Wood was a sideman for 17 years, and Mick Taylor wrote several of their hits but was never credited - and I can't imagine Yes being any less business-savvy.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Baribrotzer View Post
    Something that might matter quite a lot:

    To what extent are Jon D. and Billy S. full partners in Yes, and to what extent are they hired sidemen? Does anybody know? I don't. But I could imagine a situation where, no matter who had written what, how much they'd written, and who got the credit in the booklet, all the songwriters' royalties went into a Yes Corporation, of which the only members are Steve, Alan, and probably their manager or managers. The Stones are famous for doing things like that - Ron Wood was a sideman for 17 years, and Mick Taylor wrote several of their hits but was never credited - and I can't imagine Yes being any less business-savvy.
    AFAIK, Sherwood and Davison are hired sidemen. Yes LLC and the another LLC for touring were owned by Howe, Squire and White. However, as far as I know, songwriting royalties go to the songwriters and songwriting credits were reasonably accurately credited on the last two albums. (There are past cases of a more complex nature, e.g. Anderson apparently gets a cut from "Cinema" despite not being credited as a songwriter, not appearing on the piece, and not even being in the band when it was recorded).

    Henry
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    Member soundchaser93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bondegezou View Post
    Can you say more? I understand the "Believe Again" demo was pretty close to the final album version.

    Henry
    There's a reply to a comment on this video from Jon's stepson. I won't share it in its entirety here, but you can find it towards the bottom of the page.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVvVi6yq358

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by soundchaser93 View Post
    There's a reply to a comment on this video from Jon's stepson. I won't share it in its entirety here, but you can find it towards the bottom of the page.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVvVi6yq358
    You mean iceflame5? For everyone else, his key comments are:

    "I could tell you things about the making of that album that would put to shame all your unvoiced presumptions about what it is and what it isn't, but that would be indecent of me. Suffice it to say that a lot of Jon's material was much better in their original demos before being stripped down by other unenthusiastic and creatively worn-out Yes "members". If it weren't for Jon's efforts in the recording studio (the whole making of that album was a fucking joke) Heaven and Earth would be significantly worse than it is.

    "[...] I've been privy to a lot of the internal drama of Yes and obviously can't be open about it on YouTube, but Jon is not naively unaware of the situation he's in, and feelings often run tense between managers, members, producers, and everyone else involved. What I will say is that fans tend to put forth simplified assumptions of who's in charge and what's going on, when the internal reality of Yes is as complicated as the personalities involved."

    I don't know if this person is who he says he is. If he is, he obviously comes at this from one particular perspective. I trust my information and iceflame5's description does not apply to "Believe Again". On the other hand, other reports have described how "Light of the Ages" was cut down from a longer demo. There were also demos that weren't used on the album (at least two), which may have been better than the material that was used.

    I certainly agree that "the internal reality of Yes is [...] complicated". The full story of the making of the album has not yet been told, and perhaps never will be, something that can also be said about Fly from Here, Magnification and many other Yes albums.

    Henry
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Paulrus View Post
    Hmm, I'll believe it when I see it. But even so, Steve's contributions to H&E and FFH were good but not great. I'm probably not alone in thinking that "Step Beyond" and "Bumpy Ride" are a couple of the weaker moments in Yes music in many moons. But I do think Steve's heart is in the right place.

    And regarding the other "senior members" (aptly put, btw), I'm not convinced yet that Geoff has embraced Yes as a creative outlet. Probably because he knows his own inclinations run toward Asia and stuff like the Downes-Braid project, neither of which align very well with Yes' musical ethos.

    And Alan? Really?
    I would agree that "Step Beyond" and "Bumpy Ride" is not the best of Yes music, but I really like "Hour of Need" and "It was All We Knew", and indeed Howe's recent work outside Yes. I don't understand your scepticism about Howe taking a significant controlling role over a next album. What has led you to believe that Howe -- a man who has stubbornly stuck with Yes more than most people who have passed through the band, someone who clearly has strong views about what Yes music should be, the person with the highest profile in the current line-up, the guy who co-wrote so much of Yes's greatest works -- would cede all artistic direction to someone else?

    Downes co-wrote what many feel is the saving grace on H&E, so his contribution to the album was impactful if minimal. And don't forget that he was the main composer on Fly from Here. (OK, so he did that composing 30 years earlier...) I see nothing to suggest that Downes isn't very proud of being in Yes and his contributions to Yes. He seems entirely happy writing long-form, more proggy pieces: look at "Subways Walls"; and "Sunday News Suite" on the first DBA album is arguably proggier than half of H&E. Suburban Ghosts aligns closer to the traditional Yes ethos than, say, Billy Sherwood's Citizen; to my ears, at least. And we know there's another long-form piece by Downes and Davison left over from H&E that might appear on a new album.

    White has writing credits on every Yes album he plays on except Union (where he's only on a few tracks) and Talk. He's not a prolific writer, but the likes of "Sound Chaser", "Turn of the Century", "Release, Release", "Machine Messiah", "Changes", "Shoot High Aim Low", "In the Presence of" and "To Ascend" show you should not ignore his writing input.

    It appears that any of Howe, Downes, Sherwood or Davison could write the whole of the next Yes album if needed, and even White has a backlog of material. But I don't think any of them are interested in a songwriting monoculture. Presuming there is a new album, it will likely have composing contributions from across the band members.

    Henry
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  20. #20
    Mod or rocker? Mocker. Frumious B's Avatar
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    My basic assumption is that where there is smoke there is fire. In this day and age it is easier than ever for a songwriter or musician to get his/her stuff out there. It might not result in a lot of money, but the means are certainly available and easily accessible. So if Jon Davison, at age 44, is truly some gifted and prolific songsmith then where are his songs? Where is his body of work? Is there even so much as a YouTube of him playing some of his original stuff at an open mic somewhere? If his demos are so much better then leak'em and let us hear how brilliant he is when he isn't being held back because to me much of H&E totally reeks of "middle aged guy trying his hand at songwriting but for some reason he gets to do it with Yes instead of his garage".

    Ya know, when Jon Anderson was 44 he was gearing up for ABWH.
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    Member Kcrimso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bondegezou View Post
    I don't understand your scepticism about Howe taking a significant controlling role over a next album. What has led you to believe that Howe -- a man who has stubbornly stuck with Yes more than most people who have passed through the band, someone who clearly has strong views about what Yes music should be, the person with the highest profile in the current line-up, the guy who co-wrote so much of Yes's greatest works -- would cede all artistic direction to someone else?
    Well it seems he did exactly that with Fly From Here and Heaven & Earth. Was it Chris Squire that was holding him back? It seems that there is always someone or something blocking the TRUE GENIUS of Steve Howe...
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    cover bands should just cover....... not record.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Frumious B View Post
    My basic assumption is that where there is smoke there is fire. In this day and age it is easier than ever for a songwriter or musician to get his/her stuff out there. It might not result in a lot of money, but the means are certainly available and easily accessible. So if Jon Davison, at age 44, is truly some gifted and prolific songsmith then where are his songs? Where is his body of work? Is there even so much as a YouTube of him playing some of his original stuff at an open mic somewhere? If his demos are so much better then leak'em and let us hear how brilliant he is when he isn't being held back because to me much of H&E totally reeks of "middle aged guy trying his hand at songwriting but for some reason he gets to do it with Yes instead of his garage".

    Ya know, when Jon Anderson was 44 he was gearing up for ABWH.
    I would outright reject the idea that the music industry has yet achieved a meritocracy, where talent will rise to the top like cream. Opportunities are still hugely dependent on luck and characteristics other than musical creativity.

    As for Davison in particular, he's got, I think, writing credits on 5 albums before Heaven & Earth. Judge those as you will, but they're out there for anyone to listen to.

    I'm not making too much of a YouTube comment. If Davison himself is unhappy with how H&E came out, he's not said so in public. I'm sure he'll reflect on his experience of making that album when (if) Yes make a new album. We know being in Yes is a political experience and making a Yes album is a political experience. That's been true for at least 45 years.

    Howe, Anderson and Rabin have all released albums with demos for Yes songs; Howe's done 5 albums of demos (although not all Yes song demos). I'd buy an album of Davison demos if he wanted to do a release one day. Asked in 2013 about doing a solo album, Davison said, "I have no desire at this point in time to do any type of solo work. I've always preferred collaborative efforts. Between Yes and Glass Hammer, I find that there is more than enough creative opportunity." If Yes stall on doing a new album, or the process is too harsh to Davison's ideas, one might imagine that he'd change his mind on that and find other avenues for his creative efforts. The others in Yes, of course, all happily combine Yes with other projects.

    Henry
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  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Kcrimso View Post
    Well it seems he did exactly that with Fly From Here and Heaven & Earth. Was it Chris Squire that was holding him back? It seems that there is always someone or something blocking the TRUE GENIUS of Steve Howe...
    I don't believe Howe did "cede all artistic direction to someone else" on either of those albums. Both those albums are studiously democratic: Howe shared artistic direction, but did not cede it all. He has 2 solo credited pieces on Fly from Here, plus co-wrote "Into the Storm" + a section of the suite. It is only Howe and Davison who get solo credited pieces on H&E and Howe has two co-writes as well.

    Song duration x writing credit / no. of writers, summed over all pieces...

    Fly from Here
    Horn 779 seconds
    Downes 720
    Howe 591
    Squire 316
    Johnson/Sessler 102 each
    White/David 59 each

    Heaven & Earth
    Davison 1579 seconds
    Howe 661
    Squire 297
    Downes 272
    White 142
    Johnson 137

    Is Howe often critical of Yes albums after the fact? Yes. I kinda like that: shows he's always striving to do better. What were the other forces on those albums? Yes, Squire is part of it. Squire was a big driver for new music in the band and had, I presume, equal political weight to Howe. Squire was pushing to do Fly from Here and was who brought in Horn, who obviously ended up with a lot of the control. Squire and Davison were the ones pushing to do Heaven & Earth.

    Without Squire, the Yes dynamic must change, but I don't believe Sherwood merely inherits Squire's clout within the band because he's filling Squire's shoes in terms of performance. Power is going to lie with the senior partners. I don't think that will mean Howe will want to write the album all by himself. Howe happily writes with other people in Yes and in other projects. But, given the views he's expressed about Open Your Eyes, Howe isn't going to let Yes do another Open Your Eyes.

    Henry
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  25. #25
    Studmuffin Scott Bails's Avatar
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    I think that, if Howe decides that he wants Yes to do another album, that he will play a major role, probably becoming the de facto leader of the band. But I'd be interested in all of them writing together in some fashion. Definitely don't want Davison traveling around the world to write a song with each individual member.
    Music isn't about chops, or even about talent - it's about sound and the way that sound communicates to people. Mike Keneally

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