Phil Collins bigs up VdGG

[Bucka001]

I remember when he was pissed at Roger Waters for making disparaging remarks about the silly walk in the "I Can't Dance" video. Even wrote him a letter about it!

Anyway, Phil has been complimentary of VDGG before this. No surprise to me, but always nice to be reminded of it. I recall that Gabriel and David Jackson were quite close as well. Rutherford has commented that watching VDGG taught him "how not to construct a live setlist", as in those days they would lump all their light stuff together, and play all the heavy, demanding stuff in a row. Funny to think of now, I would *love* to have seen that Charisma tour.

Years before the I Can't Dance era, I read where Phil called PF boring, etc. He didn't have any problem back then giving his opinions on fellow bands. I even remember reading a quote from him where he said that he liked Jon Anderson as a person but hated that Yes type of music (and, truthfully, I can't imagine Phil putting on Relayer or Tales in his spare time, even back then).

Peter Gabriel has always been a big VdGG fan, which is the most unsurprising member of Genesis to say so (both VdGG and Gabriel share a fascination with darker subject matter and their music often gives off that vibe).

I've read the Mike Rutherford quote in a few places. I've heard a lot of VdGG shows from back then and have no idea what he's on about, but it doesn't surprise me that VdGG wouldn't be his thing (I personally think Mike & The Mechanics is far more wretched than any pop stuff Phil did).

Steve Hackett has recently commented that he very much liked VdGG as people and would often hang out with them on the tour bus in the early 70s, as they were more fun to hang out with than his own bunch! In a similar vein, Phil Collins told me for the VdGG book that the Graafs could be very intense on stage, but off stage they were great to have a laugh with. Phil and Guy Evans would eventually leave everyone else, get the sticks out, and jam on the seat cushions in the back of the bus. How cool would that have been to see?!!

[AncientChord]

In one of Armando Gallo's Genesis books, there's an old photo of Phil and Peter Hammill, both with very long hair. And it looks like Phil is rolling a joint! Very appropriate for the music of VDGG.

[Bucka001]

In one of Armando Gallo's Genesis books, there's an old photo of Phil and Peter Hammill, both with very long hair. And it looks like Phil is rolling a joint! Very appropriate for the music of VDGG.

That photo is from '77 at a party for Genesis following their concert at London's Rainbow Theater. I wish Armando would give me permission to post a couple of photos he sent me years ago for The Book. We didn't end up using them (they fell outside the timeline) and he made me swear to not disperse them and for years I've kept that promise. They're great, though. They're from the Roxy Theater in Los Angeles, 1979, when Hammill played a couple of sold out solo shows there. Phil Collins was there (as was Armando, Paul Whitehead, and *I think* Alphonso Johnson of all people) hanging out in the dressing room after the gig laughing and goofing around. There are a couple of great shots of Phil and Peter clowning around (both looking the exact opposite of the '77 photo from two years before, all short-haired and clean cut; they both look like two totally different dudes), with Phil behind Peter pulling his underpants out of his pants (we used to call those snuggies), and PH giving an exaagerated "WTF???" expression. Too cool, I'd love to share those some time. Maybe I'll write AG and ask him.

[AncientChord]

That photo is from '77 at a party for Genesis following their concert at London's Rainbow Theater. I wish Armando would give me permission to post a couple of photos he sent me years ago for The Book. We didn't end up using them (they fell outside the timeline) and he made me swear to not disperse them and for years I've kept that promise. They're great, though. They're from the Roxy Theater in Los Angeles, 1979, when Hammill played a couple of sold out solo shows there. Phil Collins was there (as was Armando, Paul Whitehead, and *I think* Alphonso Johnson of all people) hanging out in the dressing room after the gig laughing and goofing around. There are a couple of great shots of Phil and Peter clowning around (both looking the exact opposite of the '77 photo from two years before, all short-haired and clean cut; they both look like two totally different dudes), with Phil behind Peter pulling his underpants out of his pants (we used to call those snuggies), and PH giving an exaagerated "WTF???" expression. Too cool, I'd love to share those some time. Maybe I'll write AG and ask him.

Was that the show with Graham Smith? If so I was there too!

[Bucka001]

Was that the show with Graham Smith? If so I was there too!

Yeah, if it was '79 it had to be with GS. He's not in any of the backstage photos, though. I have a boot of one of those shows, a double vinyl I got decades ago called Modern. As I was not into PH/VdGG in '79, I have to ask out of curiousity... how was it?! From the boot it sounds like a pretty packed crowd at the Roxy, all of them fervent Hammill Heads.

[yamishogun]

We will always speculate, but was it for money, ego or both?

There is almost certainly a major third reason: They had been playing prog for a decade, and it ended when prog also ended. Duke was still half prog. If prog had stayed popular a few more years, I bet they would have put out a couple more Duke like albums, half and half.

[AncientChord]

Yeah, if it was '79 it had to be with GS. He's not in any of the backstage photos, though. I have a boot of one of those shows, a double vinyl I got decades ago called Modern. As I was not into PH/VdGG in '79, I have to ask out of curiousity... how was it?! From the boot it sounds like a pretty packed crowd at the Roxy, all of them fervent Hammill Heads.

Yes, it was packed, but my memories have somewhat faded after all of these years. I do remember liking the show, but was more in awe at his Los Angeles debut two years earlier at the Troubadour Club. I met him then also, and he signed both books of his lyrics and poems, which I still cherish.

[AncientChord]

There is almost certainly a major third reason: They had been playing prog for a decade, and it ended when prog also ended. Duke was still half prog. If prog had stayed popular a few more years, I bet they would have put out a couple more Duke like albums, half and half.

I somewhat agree. Punk tried to kill prog, but the 80's produced neo-prog and since the 90's prog has returned with a vengeance. I think it's more in vogue now than it's ever been, just more underground. And Punk?...well it's all but dead. And if it's true that the members of Genesis can't now recognize the great art that they produced, well IMO their youth produced magical music that they can no longer understand. Steve Hackett is the exception, thank God.

[JJ88]

Years ago, someone here dug out a 70s quote from Phil from one of the US music papers where he said back then the only progressive band (out of those listed, I think) he liked was Yes. So he's been pretty consistent with that.

[Scrotum Scissor]

How many prog bands didn't turn pop in the late seventies/early eighties? It was either that or starve to death. Which one would you choose?

I could name you a few hundred "prog bands" who didn't turn pop. Do you want to hear them, or perhaps they wouldn't count once you can't recognize their names?

[Scrotum Scissor]

of course he knows who they are. Genesis toured with them in the early days. In fact, Genesis opened up for VDGG at one point which is kind of weird to think of these days because now most people never even heard of VDGG.

Progressive rock arose from the UK underground, where basically everyone were to some extent aquainted with certain names; Family, Traffic, Colosseum, Incredible String Band, The Pentangle, Soft Machine, Fairport Convention, VdGG. It wasn't only due to Genesis touring with them - they were actively influenced by VdGG.

This aside, try asking a median of rock listeners in the age of 20-30 about Genesis. See how "generally well known" or "esteemed" they are.

[AncientChord]

Progressive rock arose from the UK underground, where basically everyone were to some extent aquainted with certain names; Family, Traffic, Colosseum, Incredible String Band, The Pentangle, Soft Machine, Fairport Convention, VdGG. It wasn't only due to Genesis touring with them - they were actively influenced by VdGG.

This aside, try asking a median of rock listeners in the age of 20-30 about Genesis. See how "generally well known" or "esteemed" they are.

You are spot on! The BBC recorded VDGG as early as 1968, well before most of the other pioneering British prog bands, most that didn't even exist yet!

[Scrotum Scissor]

I agree that VDGG are an aquired taste, but they were/are a band that leans more towards experimentation.

But 'progressive rock' implied an experimentalist approach to the medium of rock music by definition. They were ALL aspiring to the "experimental". Just that some succeeded better and with more generally enduring results. I don't think all those "non-prog" folks who cited Hammill/VdGG as an influence already by the late 70s did so for "hipness" credential.

The "neo-prog" pheonomenon of the 80s was hardly an equivalent to the original wave of progressive artists from the 1968- era, in that the creative ethos was a completely different one and rather aimed at a *surface aesthetic* alone. Some of those bands' sound (notably Twelfth Night, early IQ) was as informed by early post-punk as by Genesis/Yes/Floyd.

[AncientChord]

But 'progressive rock' implied an experimentalist approach to the medium of rock music by definition. They were ALL aspiring to the "experimental". y Genesis/Yes/Floyd.

Agreed. But I see that more with bands like King Crimson and VDGG. There was always a more experimental and improvisational aspect to those bands. Others like YES, ELP and Gentle Giant quickly found their niche, a comfort zone formula that made them unique. KC and VDGG have always taken more risks.

[Bucka001]

Progressive rock arose from the UK underground, where basically everyone were to some extent aquainted with certain names; Family, Traffic, Colosseum, Incredible String Band, The Pentangle, Soft Machine, Fairport Convention, VdGG. It wasn't only due to Genesis touring with them - they were actively influenced by VdGG

Yup, see my quote from earlier in the thread (last post on page 1), "All British musicians from the 70s will know who VdGG is. They were modestly successful, toured a heck of a lot in all of the nation's major cities, concert halls, and universities, and were in the music papers all the time. They were very much part of the scene."

[dpt3]

Hmm... now I'm wondering what it would sound like if Phil decided to cover a VDGG song...

[Bucka001]

Phil's signature in my VdGG book:

philC.jpg

[firth5th]

Fish is a big VDGG fan. The line "I'm so far out I'm too far in" on misplaced childhood is from Lighthouse Keepers.

[Bucka001]

Fish is a big VDGG fan. The line "I'm so far out I'm too far in" on misplaced childhood is from Lighthouse Keepers.

Bruce Dickinson from Iron Maiden also has quoted PH/VdGG (there are others as well but he comes to mind immediately). In "Solar Confinement," a song from his solo album Skunkworks, he sings the line "Chaotic energy that sucks the life from H to He." He's copped to that being a nod to VdGG. I think The Fall modeled one of their album covers after the sparse Godbluff cover design as well.

[Progatron]

Bruce Dickinson from Iron Maiden also has quoted PH/VdGG (there are others as well but he comes to mind immediately). In "Solar Confinement," a song from his solo album Skunkworks, he sings the line "Chaotic energy that sucks the life from H to He." He's copped to that being a nod to VdGG

Yes, and H To He... was the first album he ever bought. As for Fish, also note the Fool's Mate and Over LP sleeves on the floor in the painting on the back cover of Fugazi.

[Paulrus]

Here's the Phil and Peter foto from the AG book...

PC&PH.jpg

And put me in the camp that thinks Peter Gabriel would not likely have become the singer he became had Peter Hammill not happened first. That early Charisma tour they did together must have been super formative. And of course people like Fish and half the other neo-prog singers owe him a huge debt as well.

[Bucka001]

Here's the Phil and Peter foto from the AG book...

PC&PH.jpg

And put me in the camp that thinks Peter Gabriel would not likely have become the singer he became had Peter Hammill not happened first. That early Charisma tour they did together must have been super formative. And of course people like Fish and half the other neo-prog singers owe him a huge debt as well.

Yup, and PG had seen Hammill even before that (he was at the June '70 VdGG concert at the Royal Festival Hall; I'm sure he'd seen them at least a few times before that January/February '71 tour, and all the other '71 touring together). Paul Whitehead told me that he was sure that watching Hammill helped PG to come more out of his shell, and Armando Gallo once told me that PG used to sit and watch Hammill from the wings, soaking it all in. PG was definitely a fan.