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Thread: Dream Theater- The Astonishing

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLoony View Post
    Even more maddening to me is the "let's stop the song for two or four bars and let Rudess play some ridiculous piano ditty that has nothing at all to do with the song".
    Yeah, this has happened far too often. Suddenly you're listening to ragtime or something that sounds like the "Itchy And Scratchy Show" theme song. It ends up ruining the part of the song that leads up to it as well, because I'm always cringing, knowing it's coming. But like I said, these are the things that end up making it on to the albums when the two main soloists are also the producers.
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  2. #27
    I have no idea what's the difference between Portnoy and Mangini, I'm no drumming expert. I regularly see on forums or on youtube the seemingly endless cries how Portnoy was great and how Mangini just doesn't have it.

    But I think there is a difference when comparing some keyboard players of different eras in various bands. On the other hand, on one of these DT threads someone said something along the lines of "If someone believes that a keyboard player within a band makes any difference..." (and so on, I don't remember the rest of it). I suppose each keys player has his own experience how much of his own preferences he can get on to the record. My guess is that since Portnoy left Rudess has been given more space with his symphonic stuff, but while Portnoy was there all three of their keys players just followed the song and had little inserts/ideas of their own included on the albums. But this is just speculation.

  3. #28
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    I gave up on these guys years ago because everything was sounding the same to me. Without Portnoy have they changed much? Prog metal doesn't do much for me. And before I get the criticism I think these guys are super talented.


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  4. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by selmer View Post
    I have no idea what's the difference between Portnoy and Mangini, I'm no drumming expert. I regularly see on forums or on youtube the seemingly endless cries how Portnoy was great and how Mangini just doesn't have it.

    But I think there is a difference when comparing some keyboard players of different eras in various bands. On the other hand, on one of these DT threads someone said something along the lines of "If someone believes that a keyboard player within a band makes any difference..." (and so on, I don't remember the rest of it). I suppose each keys player has his own experience how much of his own preferences he can get on to the record. My guess is that since Portnoy left Rudess has been given more space with his symphonic stuff, but while Portnoy was there all three of their keys players just followed the song and had little inserts/ideas of their own included on the albums. But this is just speculation.
    Mangini is a much stronger drummer than Portnoy (who is no slouch to be fair). That doesn't mean folks will like how Mangini fits into the DT sound of course. Personally, I think he is an improvement.

    I think of the three keyboard players, Moore had the biggest hand in shaping the songs themselves. I also happen to think he was one of the best songwriters the band had, and they've lacked something ever since (that is very much my personal opinion though). Sherinian probably had the best *sounding* keyboards that DT ever had; less digital synths and more of a warm sound...the Rhodes he added on Hells Kitchen for example is simply gorgeous.

    I don't like Rudess as much as I liked Moore in DT...but honestly, I think he is nonetheless probably the best fit for what the band does.

    I've enjoyed the last few albums well enough for what they are, and will certainly be game for giving the next one a listen.
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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Bails View Post
    I'm probably in the minority, but I always thought that Sherinian was perfectly suited for DT.

    I agree totally, which is why Falling Into Infinity will likely always be my favourite DT album. Also, it's one that they DID make with a producer - Kevin Shirley. The latter alone probably helps to explain the lack of bloat, decent tone and audibility of Myung, and much better-arranged tunes than usual.

    That said, I really liked the last, eponymous album, which I thought was a real return to form after the sheer awfulness of the latter-day Portnoy years. Myung's generally clearly audible on that album, too, but I still find his tone distinctly questionable.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by viukkis View Post
    I've had no trouble hearing Myung after Mangini joined the band. Portnoy preferred a flabbier bass drum sound and as the producer he always seemed to make sure that it got pushed up in the mix, leaving little room for the bass.
    I think it also has a lot to do with the fact that Myung's started playing a lot more in the way of distinctive basslines, too, rather than just doubling the guitar part as he seemed to be condemned to for years. It's a lot easier to hear what you're doing if you're not simply acting as the lower-end version of somebody's else's instrumental line.

  7. #32
    Studmuffin Scott Bails's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kid_runningfox View Post
    I think it also has a lot to do with the fact that Myung's started playing a lot more in the way of distinctive basslines, too, rather than just doubling the guitar part as he seemed to be condemned to for years. It's a lot easier to hear what you're doing if you're not simply acting as the lower-end version of somebody's else's instrumental line.
    Spot-on.
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  8. #33
    éí 'aaníígÓÓ 'áhoot'é Don Arnold's Avatar
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    Just gave the last DT album a spin yesterday and enjoyed it more than I had previously (and I liked it from the get-go). To my ears there's some well crafted tunes on display, as well as some of the patented DT "wankery". And for my money, I quite like the wankery though I admit at times it can be excessive. I also like those rag-time piano bits and solos out of left field.

    Count me in with those that are looking foward to this new recording.

  9. #34
    Member Haruspex Carnage's Avatar
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    Every album since 6 Degrees has had at least ONE song i can get behind...there was literally not a single track i liked off the newer self-titled one.

    Let's face it, they're a band of fantastic musicianship, clearly virtuosos...but for-the-song songwriters? Hardly.
    Last edited by Haruspex Carnage; 11-05-2015 at 12:31 PM.

  10. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Haruspex Carnage View Post
    Every album since 6 Degrees has had at least ONE song i can get behind...there was literally not a single track i liked off the newer self-titled one.

    Let's face it, they're a band of fantastic musicianship, clearly virtuosos...but for-the-song songwriters? Hardly.
    Here is where Dream Theater lost me:

    1. Bought Awake by chance and liked two thirds of it.
    2. A year later got Images and Words and liked all of it
    3. Falling Into Infinity - liked almost all of it ("Hollow Years" could have been left off ) and seem to like it more than most DT fans.

    4. Scenes From a Memory Part 2 This is where I started having problems with "too many notes!" I think it would have been better if 10 or 15 minutes were cut. I know, heresy.
    5. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence Now at over 90 minutes... I didn't like the first 30 minutes but becomes interesting after that. I rate it higher now than when released

    6. Train of Thought And here is where I departed. zzzz
    7. Octavarium meh...except for "These Walls"

    I listened to samples of Systemic Chaos but for me Dream Theater ended on an up note in 2003. What have I been missing over the last ten years?
    Last edited by yamishogun; 11-05-2015 at 02:26 PM.

  11. #36
    Member Haruspex Carnage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yamishogun View Post
    Here is where Dream Theater lost me:

    1. Bought Awake by chance and liked two thirds of it.
    2. A year later got Images and Words and liked all of it
    3. Falling Into Infinity - liked almost all of it ("Hollow Years" could have been left off ) and seem to like it more than most DT fans.

    4. Scenes From a Memory Part 2 This is where I started having problems with "too many notes!" I think it would have been better if 10 or 15 minutes were cut. I know, heresy.
    5. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence Now at over 90 minutes... I didn't like the first 30 minutes but becomes interesting after that. I rate it higher now than when released

    6. Train of Thought And here is where I departed. zzzz
    7. Octavarium meh...except for "These Walls"

    I listened to samples of Systemic Chaos but for me Dream Theater ended on an up note in 2003. What have I been missing over the last ten years?
    Well i should've rephrased in that all their albums have at least some songs i like/d...i wasn't going into their entire oeuvre.

  12. #37
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    Lotsa comments I agree with on this thread.

    1. Moore's lyric contribution cannot be understated; as when as his 'song sculpting'. To be fair; DT 'demo-ed' their stuff during Kev's time more than they do now.
    2. Count me with those who do not like SC or Black Clouds. I enjoy ADToE much more than s/t. My Top 5: Awake, WDADU, SFAM, 8vm, ADToE
    3. I also agree with the cookie cutter / tack on solo swapping sections. Most of those could entirely be lifted out and a great song left in its place with plenty of "DT-ness" still remaining.

    The new album: Could be DT's "Tommy" (though not likely), but has a high probability of being DT's "Killroy was Here" but at twice the size. I need less from DT not more.
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  13. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by battema View Post
    Mangini is a much stronger drummer than Portnoy (who is no slouch to be fair). That doesn't mean folks will like how Mangini fits into the DT sound of course. Personally, I think he is an improvement.
    Mangini has, for me, been a disappointment. The live videos suggest that his stage persona has soaked up Portnoy's 'added testosterone' style rather than going towards the 'mad professor' drumming that would really suit this band. He never looks like he's having any fun and I don't find it fun to watch or hear him: Portnoy at least gave the impression that he was having a blast (some of the time).

    I won't be the first to say this, but Marco would have been so much better on the drummer's stool.

  14. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by battema View Post
    Mangini is a much stronger drummer than Portnoy (who is no slouch to be fair). That doesn't mean folks will like how Mangini fits into the DT sound of course. Personally, I think he is an improvement.

    I think of the three keyboard players, Moore had the biggest hand in shaping the songs themselves. I also happen to think he was one of the best songwriters the band had, and they've lacked something ever since (that is very much my personal opinion though). Sherinian probably had the best *sounding* keyboards that DT ever had; less digital synths and more of a warm sound...the Rhodes he added on Hells Kitchen for example is simply gorgeous.

    I don't like Rudess as much as I liked Moore in DT...but honestly, I think he is nonetheless probably the best fit for what the band does.

    I've enjoyed the last few albums well enough for what they are, and will certainly be game for giving the next one a listen.
    Most of the time I see the Mangini and Portnoy comparisons people say that Portnoy's playing is much more innovative and interesting. And one more thing that can be often seen is a claim that Mangini plays Portnoy's parts not how they should be played. Since I really have no clue I can't comment on these claims.
    It would've been fascinating to see how they would look if they stayed with Sherinian for a couple more albums. It's difficult to say something about him as he only did one epic and one full length record with them (not counting the live albums).

  15. #40
    Insect Overlord Progatron's Avatar
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    I think Mangini is great, I have no issue with his drumming contributions whatsoever. But I think DT lost something else when Portnoy left.... a senior (well, founding) member with a lot of say in some of the internal band workings. Things that the average listener might not consider, but that do affect the band's subsequent output. It isn't always just about "who writes the songs". Bands do change to a degree when they lose a key member, and I think in this case some of the decision-making power that Portnoy wielded shifted to Petrucci (and to a lesser extent Rudess), leaving the band somewhat unbalanced. Not to say that some of the issues I've had with DT over the last ten or so years weren't there with Portnoy too, but I think with him out of the picture, replaced by a new guy who isn't going to rock the boat much, some of those issues grew even more noticeable. Certainly on the Dramatic Turn Of Events album anyway, which to me is the weakest album they've ever made. However, some positive changes within the band could well have occurred too... they wouldn't be the first band to admit to enjoying a bit of breathing room when a dominant member jumps ship.

    I maintain my position that they would benefit immensely from a proper, outside producer. All of this being said, I still look forward to hearing a new album... I do have a soft spot for these guys when all is said and done.
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  16. #41
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    But I think DT lost something else when Portnoy left.... a senior (well, founding) member with a lot of say in some of the internal band workings.
    Personally, given that I think that Portnoy's influence on the band was becoming wholly negative (cookie monster vocals in DT? REALLY????) I see it as no bad thing that he left. Also, given comments by certain other members of the band, it seems that they feel this way, too.

    I maintain my position that they would benefit immensely from a proper, outside producer.
    On this I absolutely agree - I'd love to see them work with Kevin Shirley again, as he seemed to tame their inability to recognize when less might actually be more, whilst giving them free reign to go for it when the music required it.

    4. Scenes From a Memory Part 2 This is where I started having problems with "too many notes!" I think it would have been better if 10 or 15 minutes were cut. I know, heresy.
    This is where I almost got off the DT bus entirely, I also realise it's akin to heresy amongst DT fans, but I think that this is a truly terrible album. I can remember being on a car journey not long after this album came out with it playing on the stereo. After about 15 minutes I realized that they hadn't yet played anything approaching a recognizable tune and the whole thing was just giving me a massive headache. I took it out of the cassette player, threw the tape on the back seat, and I don't think I've played the album again since. Thank god Six Degrees had at least some redeeming moments or that would've been it for me.
    Last edited by kid_runningfox; 11-05-2015 at 10:21 PM.

  17. #42
    Studmuffin Scott Bails's Avatar
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    I think Portnoy is underrated as an arranger.
    Music isn't about chops, or even about talent - it's about sound and the way that sound communicates to people. Mike Keneally

  18. #43
    Insect Overlord Progatron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kid_runningfox View Post
    Personally, given that I think that Portnoy's influence on the band was becoming wholly negative (cookie monster vocals in DT? REALLY????) I see it as no bad thing that he left. Also, given comments by certain other members of the band, it seems that they feel this way, too.
    Well, a lot of bands make mistakes when trying to apply current trends. Even Rush used rap at one point. But if you're talking about the section in "A Nightmare To Remember", those aren't really cookie monster vocals (although they did record that section with Portnoy doing cookie monster vocals but didn't use it). It didn't work either way, with the lyrics "By the grace of god above, everyone survived..." - that just doesn't match with harsh vocals IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by kid_runningfox View Post
    On this I absolutely agree - I'd love to see them work with Kevin Shirley again, as he seemed to tame their inability to recognize when less might actually be more, whilst giving them free reign to go for it when the music required it.
    He's something of a legend when it comes to putting his foot down, which he had to do with both Alex Lifeson and Steve Harris. A good producer sometimes has to do that... as fantastic as some of these musicians are, not every idea they come up with is a good one.

    Quote Originally Posted by kid_runningfox View Post
    This is where I almost got off the DT bus entirely, I know it's akin to heresy amongst DT fans, but I think that this is a truly terrible album. I can remember being on a car journey not long after this album came out with it playing on the stereo. After about 15 minutes I realized that they hadn't yet anything approaching a recognizable tune and the whole thing was just giving me a massive headache. I took it out of the cassette player, threw the tape on the back seat, and I don't think I've played the album again since. Thank god Six Degrees had at least some redeeming moments or that would've been it for me.
    Not heresy to me, but I think it's one of their better albums, personally. Not every track works, but the ones that do are great, and the live version on the Scenes From New York album is pretty spectacular. I know their work can suffer from the overblown instrumental workouts, but to me that album had enough balance with some memorable melodies. Whereas by the time they got to a song like "A Rite Of Passage" (one of the worst tracks they've ever done IMO), they had really lost the plot. An absolute mess of a track, with Rudess soloing on his iPhone..?!
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  19. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by kid_runningfox View Post

    This is where I almost got off the DT bus entirely, I also realise it's akin to heresy amongst DT fans, but I think that this is a truly terrible album. I can remember being on a car journey not long after this album came out with it playing on the stereo. After about 15 minutes I realized that they hadn't yet anything approaching a recognizable tune and the whole thing was just giving me a massive headache. I took it out of the cassette player, threw the tape on the back seat, and I don't think I've played the album again since. Thank god Six Degrees had at least some redeeming moments or that would've been it for me.
    Actually, when I played it a few times in full I thought the same thing. But when I picked out only what I liked, I turned it into a 45 minute that I sometimes listened to when it came out but haven't listened to it apart from the ending since. yep, heresy.

    I cut what I didn't like from Six Degrees and liked that 45 minute side much better. But that was the end of DT from me except "These Walls"-- that intro is great!

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Progatron View Post
    Not heresy to me, but I think it's one of their better albums, personally. Not every track works, but the ones that do are great, and the live version on the Scenes From New York album is pretty spectacular. I know their work can suffer from the overblown instrumental workouts, but to me that album had enough balance with some memorable melodies.
    I agree. It's the best thing I've ever heard from them.

    Overplaying and lumpy song transitions has always been these guys' Achilles' heel IMHO. If it's gotten worse on later albums (most of which I've never heard), well....

  21. #46
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    Based on the last two albums I'm really looking forward to this. On the other hand they may go in another direction...

  22. #47
    The concept behind the new album is starting to be revealed....

    http://www.dreamtheater.net/theastonishing

  23. #48
    Insect Overlord Progatron's Avatar
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    ^^^ Wow, they're going all out with the concept! This is looking more like an Ayreon release.
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  24. #49
    I predict that the music on The Astonishing will leave us all " astonished"
    Also think the packaging for the cd will be very detailed too-Hugh Syme proberbly involved maybe?

  25. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by kid_runningfox View Post
    I think it also has a lot to do with the fact that Myung's started playing a lot more in the way of distinctive basslines, too, rather than just doubling the guitar part as he seemed to be condemned to for years. It's a lot easier to hear what you're doing if you're not simply acting as the lower-end version of somebody's else's instrumental line.
    No wonder he looked so bored.

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