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Thread: Record Cleaning Regimens

  1. #51
    Member LASERCD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    Are you saying brand new, right out of the shrink wrap vinyl has ticks and pops?

    Because... that's been my experience too.

    Last night I played a couple brand new LPs done in Germany by Vinyl-On-Demand (180g vinyl, the whole works), and although they sounded great they still had that familiar vinyl ticking and popping sound. OTOH right now I'm dubbing Nimal's first LP (1987) which has never been on CD (although most of it was re-recorded for "Voix de surface" (1990)) and lo and behold, it's going into my DAW with almost zero clicks and pops!!! I guess it must come down to the quality of vinyl? Both LPs were cleaned identically (and looked virgin).
    Generally speaking what you describe is not uncommon at all. I've never heard of Vinyl-On-Demand so I can't comment on the quality. Many current pressing plants like United Record Pressing absolutely suck in terms of quality. There are very few pressing plants left in the world that are high quality. I can count them on one hand.

    Quite often what you are hearing is the residue from mold release agent. That's why you clean new albums right out of the sleeve. Discwasher fluid and brush won't do anything. You have to use an enzymatic liquid cleaner (ie. Audio Intelligent #15) to remove all the gunk hidden in the grooves. Admittedly it would be difficult to remove the cleaning fluids without some kind of a vacuum type cleaning machine such as a VPI or Nitty Gritty.

  2. #52
    I use a KAB EV-1.

    This RCM is made for KAB by Nitty Gritty, but it has no motor and no vacuum. You spin the record by hand and connect your own vacuum. So, for a fraction of what most RCM's cost ($169), you get 100% of the performance.

    I DIY my own fluid. The formula is 30% isopropyl alcohol (not rubbing alcohol), it is like 99% pure. 70% distilled water and a tiny drop of Dawn as a surfactant.

    Works on most records. I once had a Japanese pressing of Renaissance 'Scheherazade' that was super noisy. Turned out it got wet before storage and developed mold. I used a enzyme cleaner with my KAB EV-1, and the record became dead quiet.

    Ultrasonic cleaners are the best, but there is no need to spend $4000 for the Audiodesk.

    You can get an ultrasonic cleaner just as effective as he Audiodesk for about $1500.

    http://www.ultrasonicrecords.com/

    Or even cheaper, is this kit - http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ultrasonic-V...-/161402849405

    And separate ultrasonic cleaner, about $140 on eBay.
    And if there were a god, I think it very unlikely that he would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence - Russell

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by aplodon View Post
    I think it also matters what kind of equipment you play them on, and there's two sides to that:
    1. Cheap, simple players or bad pick-ups may damage the record after some spins.
    Well, that's the thing. All styli damage the disc to some extent eventually, they must do, because you have a physical object running along the grooves at speed. Whole articles ussed to be devoted to this in the music sections of the main newspapers. Audio buffs used to claim they could hear the deterioration in sound quality even after a few spins on high quality equipment. Not saying it trashed the record or made the listening unenjoyable, but it (supposedly) lost some of that initial "crispness" that it had on first listen.

    There was a time when I used to record a new LP to cassette and only listen to the cassette until such time as the cassette sound quality deteriorated and I needed to repeat the process. Cassettes were much more convenient in many ways, and it saved an awful lot of angst over handling of records.

  4. #54
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    Are you saying brand new, right out of the shrink wrap vinyl has ticks and pops?

    Because... that's been my experience too.


    Quote Originally Posted by LASERCD View Post
    Generally speaking what you describe is not uncommon at all. I've never heard of Vinyl-On-Demand so I can't comment on the quality. Many current pressing plants like United Record Pressing absolutely suck in terms of quality. There are very few pressing plants left in the world that are high quality. I can count them on one hand.

    Quite often what you are hearing is the residue from mold release agent. That's why you clean new albums right out of the sleeve. Discwasher fluid and brush won't do anything. You have to use an enzymatic liquid cleaner (ie. Audio Intelligent #15) to remove all the gunk hidden in the grooves. Admittedly it would be difficult to remove the cleaning fluids without some kind of a vacuum type cleaning machine such as a VPI or Nitty Gritty.
    Now I know why I never buy new pressings... Except for SZ's blue vinyl of Eskaton.

    Quote Originally Posted by bob_32_116 View Post
    Well, that's the thing. All styli damage the disc to some extent eventually, they must do, because you have a physical object running along the grooves at speed. Whole articles ussed to be devoted to this in the music sections of the main newspapers. Audio buffs used to claim they could hear the deterioration in sound quality even after a few spins on high quality equipment. Not saying it trashed the record or made the listening unenjoyable, but it (supposedly) lost some of that initial "crispness" that it had on first listen.
    Well that's obvious... especially that stylus material is extremely hard and vinyl surface rather tender

    There was a time when I used to record a new LP to cassette and only listen to the cassette until such time as the cassette sound quality deteriorated and I needed to repeat the process. Cassettes were much more convenient in many ways, and it saved an awful lot of angst over handling of records.
    Mmmmhhh!!!

    Least of all the portability of your music...

    But I also used XL-II S (Maxell) for archiving purpose, as I got rid of vinyls I didn't care for and saved whatever was salvageable on tape
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  5. #55
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    I always recorded my vinyl on cassette also. It make it more convenient then for playing my music in the car. I treated my vinyl more carefully than eggs. I'm surprised that some of the albums I pull out from years ago don't sound very good and others sound brilliant.

  6. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Lopez View Post
    $4,000.00! I'll wipe them on my sleeve.
    If you want the undercoating and rust-proofing features, it's $4750.

  7. #57
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Oh golly, here's a whole other flaw to worry about:
    The next biggest problem is the vinyl itself. In order to become pliable and pressed, it has to be made of a consistency which enables these things to be done to it. Therein lies another slight flaw. The Last company found thru testing that the side of a new record being played is not the one getting damage most, it's the side OPPOSITE that gets damaged most. What happens is, the "shock" wave created by the stylus moves from the point of contact like the ripples on a pond when a stone is cast in. The waves are strongest at the nearest point, which happens to be just under on the opposite side. When these waves hit that side, and the side abruptly ends, physics tells us the waves want to keep going. If there are any microscopic soft spots or cracks in the record, these waves punch them out. (like the air pressure of an explosion blowing out windows) This debris then lies in the groove, and when the stylus plays that side, the heat from the stylus tracking welds this debris in place. The result is a miniature speedbump, that comes thru your stereo as record "noise" or a "pop" if it happens to be larger. This stuff can also become affixed to your stylus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    Oh golly, here's a whole other flaw to worry about:
    I wouldn't call it a "whole other flaw". I'd just say that vinyl is one big flaw.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffCarney View Post
    I've wanted an Audio Desk for a while. See myself going that route within the next couple of years.

    A simply amazing piece of machinery.
    Jeff - having seen Ken's in action, I can attest that it is as amazing as it looks. I might have to go into the record cleaning business to pay one off.

  10. #60
    Jazzbo manqué Mister Triscuits's Avatar
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    When these waves hit that side, and the side abruptly ends, physics tells us the waves want to keep going. If there are any microscopic soft spots or cracks in the record, these waves punch them out. (like the air pressure of an explosion blowing out windows) This debris then lies in the groove, and when the stylus plays that side, the heat from the stylus tracking welds this debris in place.
    Ha! If it's such a violent shock wave, shouldn't it just blast all the dust and debris right out of the groove, onto the turntable mat? Hey, vinyl is self-cleaning! Who knew?

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by simon moon View Post
    Works on most records. I once had a Japanese pressing of Renaissance 'Scheherazade' that was super noisy. Turned out it got wet before storage and developed mold. I used a enzyme cleaner with my KAB EV-1, and the record became dead quiet.
    Just to solidify what a few others here have already said, wet cleaning is essential to proper vinyl care. Mold, microscopic dust and tons of other shit gets in the groves and doesn't come out with a simple brush. Carbon fiber brushes are perfect for keeping the surface detritus off already cleaned records. This is one of the reasons why a NM looking piece of wax can sound terrible. There are plenty of things that you can't see that can affect the sound. And as Ken mentioned, even factory sealed new LPs need a cleaning. I actually find these to be the worst. Bits of paper, vinyl fragments, etc. And they're usually scuffed or scratched before you even open them.


    Quote Originally Posted by simon moon View Post
    I use a KAB EV-1.

    This RCM is made for KAB by Nitty Gritty, but it has no motor and no vacuum. You spin the record by hand and connect your own vacuum. So, for a fraction of what most RCM's cost ($169), you get 100% of the performance.
    My poor man's solution to the VPI is something similar, but has a built in vacuum: http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=RDV - I still brush by hand with microfiber cloths and Disc Doctor solution, and a water rinse, and then suck it out on the record doctor.


    Quote Originally Posted by simon moon View Post
    Ultrasonic cleaners are the best, but there is no need to spend $4000 for the Audiodesk.

    You can get an ultrasonic cleaner just as effective as he Audiodesk for about $1500.

    http://www.ultrasonicrecords.com/

    Or even cheaper, is this kit - http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ultrasonic-V...-/161402849405

    And separate ultrasonic cleaner, about $140 on eBay.
    I have to say, after cleaning about 1,500 records by hand, I see the appeal of the Audio Desk. These other options all look a bit to slapped together for me. At least you have faith that the AD has had research put into it for the proper wattage, temperature, etc. needed not to damage the vinyl.

    There's a Chinese knockoff of the AD out there for much, much cheaper, though I can't really find any reviews that would justify actually buying it: http://www.ebay.com/itm/181794007253...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob_32_116 View Post
    I wouldn't call it a "whole other flaw". I'd just say that vinyl is one big flaw.
    Those of us who get enjoyment out of our vinyl collections don't really give a shit. YMMV.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pr33t View Post
    Those of us who get enjoyment out of our vinyl collections don't really give a shit. YMMV.
    MMD

  14. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by bob_32_116 View Post
    I wouldn't call it a "whole other flaw". I'd just say that vinyl is one big flaw.
    So funny that you say this. In my recent listening I've started to feel this way about CD.

    People complain about some tics and pops on vinyl, but redbook CD is basically 100% flawed.

    CD has one basic sonic advantage: Quiet noise floor. That's it. It doesn't have the depth of sound that vinyl produces. The signal is utterly chopped off in the sampling process and doesn't extend the way analog vinyl's sound does. Acoustic instruments can sound absolutely sterile on CD. High frequencies sound positively laughable compared to vinyl. Not because they aren't there, but because high frequencies sound like shit on CD. Tinny, crispy-crisp, and just plain awful in all but some exceptional cases. One can buy a $10,000 CD player to help solve this to some extent. Not particularly logical, however, because the format is so intrinsically flawed.

    As someone who purchased quite a large vinyl collection not long ago, I have been going through a lot of titles and comparing them to even what I thought were the very best versions available on CD. Vinyl absolutely slays even the best, well-mastered CDs 99% of the time. The entire CD-era has done a great disservice to music, IMO. The price we have paid for "clean" sound is simply too high.

    I've become absolutely engulfed by music again in recent months. And I owe that in large part to finally jumping back into the waters of vinyl. A lot of "talk" is out there about both formats, but what I've realized is that a whole universe of vinyl listeners are out there and scooping these records up. They are spending their time worrying about getting clean copies of the albums they want to hear in analog sound, with properly sized artwork and so forth. They aren't worried about the imbecilic nature of the anti-vinyl crowd who are out there spewing what is often largely nonsense about vinyl's "downsides," because they are too busy enjoying music.

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    This is the second reference I've seen to "redbook CD". Can someone explain what it is?

    Yes I could Google it, but I'd rather have it explained to me by a human with whom I can have a dialogue.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob_32_116 View Post
    This is the second reference I've seen to "redbook CD". Can someone explain what it is?

    Yes I could Google it, but I'd rather have it explained to me by a human with whom I can have a dialogue.
    http://www.about-audio-mastering-sof.../red-book.html

    This lays it out in simplistic language.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LASERCD View Post
    http://www.about-audio-mastering-sof.../red-book.html

    This lays it out in simplistic language.
    Thanks for that. Standard music CD format, in other words.

    I somehow get the impression that every audio CD mastered at Mister’s Mastering House conforms to the red book standard.

    By the way, Mr Carney, insults like "imbecilic" don't help much with discussion, the aim of which should be to arrive at the truth, not to score points against your opponents.
    Last edited by bob_32_116; 11-04-2015 at 03:20 PM.

  18. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by bob_32_116 View Post
    Thanks for that. Standard music CD format, in other words.

    I somehow get the impression that every audio CD mastered at Mister’s Mastering House conforms to the red book standard.

    By the way, Mr Carney, insults like "imbecilic" don't help much with discussion, the aim of which should be to arrive at the truth, not to score points against your opponents.
    That comment was of a more generic nature and not directed towards you.

    Having said that, you really should read the stuff you've been posting in this thread from a somewhat objective standpoint. Patronizing and closed-minded at many a turn. The irony that this turns out to be from a guy who in the final analysis needed to be educated about what the term "redbook" meant definitely falls in line with my comment. You've "switched" to CD and proudly boast of such a choice, but at least in terms of sonics, don't actually know what you're referencing.

  19. #69
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Jeff, we've been down this road enough times to know that you are unlikely to change your mind about CDs, even when shown the facts. You are of course free to prefer any format you want, as preferences are entirely subjective.

    Your post however was phrased as a statement of fact, when it was not. You should be more careful to keep OPINIONS and PrEFERENCES labeled as such.

  20. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    Jeff, we've been down this road enough times to know that you are unlikely to change your mind about CDs, even when shown the facts. You are of course free to prefer any format you want, as preferences are entirely subjective.

    Your post however was phrased as a statement of fact, when it was not. You should be more careful to keep OPINIONS and PrEFERENCES labeled as such.
    Through the years here, I suspect you have not read my posts attentively.

    I've spent years comparing CDs, recommending best versions, etc. I have long supported the format both financially and publicly. There are still things I adore about CD.

    I've been what one might call a "50/50" guy for a long time. Far more CDs than vinyl in my personal library, but appreciative of vinyl's attributes.

    However, I have recently come to realize that I have been utterly delusional. Typically, vinyl slays CD; period.

    You speak of "facts" on one hand and embrace "opinion" terminology on the other. Pretty much everything we speak of around here is opinion. Though I would imagine you would choose to believe otherwise, you're listening preference for CD is no exception.

  21. #71
    Back on topic, here's what I use (not my video)



    Also, does anyone use ZERODUST ONZOW STYLUS TIP CLEANER?
    "Always ready with the ray of sunshine"

  22. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by JeffCarney View Post
    So funny that you say this. In my recent listening I've started to feel this way about CD.

    People complain about some tics and pops on vinyl, but redbook CD is basically 100% flawed.

    CD has one basic sonic advantage: Quiet noise floor. That's it. It doesn't have the depth of sound that vinyl produces. The signal is utterly chopped off in the sampling process and doesn't extend the way analog vinyl's sound does. Acoustic instruments can sound absolutely sterile on CD. High frequencies sound positively laughable compared to vinyl. Not because they aren't there, but because high frequencies sound like shit on CD. Tinny, crispy-crisp, and just plain awful in all but some exceptional cases. One can buy a $10,000 CD player to help solve this to some extent. Not particularly logical, however, because the format is so intrinsically flawed.

    As someone who purchased quite a large vinyl collection not long ago, I have been going through a lot of titles and comparing them to even what I thought were the very best versions available on CD. Vinyl absolutely slays even the best, well-mastered CDs 99% of the time. The entire CD-era has done a great disservice to music, IMO. The price we have paid for "clean" sound is simply too high.

    I've become absolutely engulfed by music again in recent months. And I owe that in large part to finally jumping back into the waters of vinyl. A lot of "talk" is out there about both formats, but what I've realized is that a whole universe of vinyl listeners are out there and scooping these records up. They are spending their time worrying about getting clean copies of the albums they want to hear in analog sound, with properly sized artwork and so forth. They aren't worried about the imbecilic nature of the anti-vinyl crowd who are out there spewing what is often largely nonsense about vinyl's "downsides," because they are too busy enjoying music.

    I am getting closer lately, to thinking the same way as you express here.


    My main reason for having top quality vinyl playback systems, has mostly been to play albums that have not been properly released on CD.

    But lately I've noticed, and so has my girlfriend, that my listening sessions have been shorter when listening to CD than when I listen to vinyl. I just don't get sucked into the music as much as I do with vinyl. I am just more likely to play record after record, than CD after CD. I am not a nostalgic person, so that is not the reason. I am neutral on the ritual of playing vinyl, so that is not it.

    Ticks and pops have always been nothing more than a minor annoyance. And since the vast majority of my collection has always been treated extremely well (handled well, cleaned regularly and played on great equipment using cartridges with line trace or Shibata stylus'), they are so few and fare between, it is almost not worth mentioning.

    One thing that I constantly notice, and have pointed out in these 'CD vs vinyl' discussions on numerous occasions, is that, even with the same recording on vinyl and reissue on CD (mostly classical and jazz), vinyl reproduces soundstage and imaging better than CD.

    but because high frequencies sound like shit on CD. Tinny, crispy-crisp, and just plain awful...
    I have been able to prove this to quite a few people with my system. Cymbals, for example, sound like a steam valve opening and closing on most CD's, on vinyl, you can hear the attack and decay.
    And if there were a god, I think it very unlikely that he would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence - Russell

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by strawberrybrick View Post

    Also, does anyone use ZERODUST ONZOW STYLUS TIP CLEANER?
    Charles:

    I've used the Zerodust Onzow Stylus Tip Cleaner. Its a little scary but it does a very good job of getting gunk off the stylus.

  24. #74
    False Number 9 Pr33t's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LASERCD View Post
    Charles:

    I've used the Zerodust Onzow Stylus Tip Cleaner. Its a little scary but it does a very good job of getting gunk off the stylus.
    Yep, I got one a few months back, and after you use it a few times, it's not as nerve wracking. In fact, I think it's a lot safer than brushing the stylus yourself.

  25. #75
    False Number 9 Pr33t's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simon moon View Post
    I am getting closer lately, to thinking the same way as you express here.
    Welcome to the dark side I've posted at length about it here before, but I had a similar experience to Jeff and yourself of noticing how much I disliked listening to CDs. In the end, it's always a personal preference, but I very much do believe that on the right system, vinyl sounds better every time. Does that mean it is for everyone? No. There's already a shortage of great albums on wax, no need for more competition.

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