Thread: NBA Basketball Thread

  1. #301
    Quote Originally Posted by Reginod View Post
    ^^^^ Nope. Jordan had a zest for the game, and an unsurpassed will to win, and the physical ability, and the work ethic, and the fundamentals that allowed him to continue to play at a high level and win after he'd passed his physical peak
    Jordan never won anything after he passed he passed his physical peak. He was the leading scorer for a Washington Wizards team that he never even took to the playoffs. Lebron James (albeit at his peak) took worse Cavs teams than Jordan's Wizards to the NBA finals. I'm not going to fault Jordan for not going to the finals with the Wizards at the age of 40, I'm just putting some perspective on what actually happened in his career.

  2. #302
    ^^^ Nope. Jordan's second threepeat came well after he was 30. Perhaps we have a difference of opinion regarding the meaning of "physical peak", but AFAIC the guy that hung 63 on the Celtics in the 1986 playoffs was at his physical peak. The guy that won the second threepeat was still a killer, but not so explosive. The guy that finished out his career with the Wizards was still very good, but no longer exceptional.
    Hired on to work for Mr. Bill Cox, a-fixin' lawn mowers and what-not, since 1964.

    "Arguing with an idiot is like playing chess with a pigeon. It'll just knock over all the pieces, shit on the board, and strut about like it's won anyway." Anonymous

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  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by Reginod View Post
    ^^^ Nope. Jordan's second threepeat came well after he was 30. Perhaps we have a difference of opinion regarding the meaning of "physical peak", but AFAIC the guy that hung 63 on the Celtics in the 1986 playoffs was at his physical peak. The guy that won the second threepeat was still a killer, but not so explosive. The guy that finished out his career with the Wizards was still very good, but no longer exceptional.
    Then your statement has no meaning. Nobody considers early-'30s Jordan to have been physically diminished. He was still one of the league's most athletic players during that time. He may have been a little bit more athletic at the age of 23 (1986), but so what? He wasn't as good of a player then, anyway. Except for those who suffered significant injuries, I can't think of any great basketball players who were better at the age of 23 than at 30.
    Last edited by Facelift; 05-31-2016 at 01:59 AM.

  4. #304
    Quote Originally Posted by Facelift View Post
    He may have been a little bit more athletic at the age of 23 (1986)
    Or in other words, "physical peak".
    Hired on to work for Mr. Bill Cox, a-fixin' lawn mowers and what-not, since 1964.

    "Arguing with an idiot is like playing chess with a pigeon. It'll just knock over all the pieces, shit on the board, and strut about like it's won anyway." Anonymous

    “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” George Carlin

  5. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by Reginod View Post
    Or in other words, "physical peak".
    Or, in other words, a meaningless distinction, because then no great players were at their greatest at their physical peak.
    Last edited by Facelift; 05-31-2016 at 02:33 AM.

  6. #306
    Member Vic2012's Avatar
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    Congrats to the finalists. Should be a hell of a rematch.

  7. #307
    NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF STUPID PEOPLE IN LARGE GROUPS!

  8. #308
    Quote Originally Posted by Facelift View Post
    Then your statement has no meaning. Nobody considers early-'30s Jordan to have been physically diminished. He was still one of the league's most athletic players during that time. He may have been a little bit more athletic at the age of 23 (1986), but so what? He wasn't as good of a player then, anyway. Except for those who suffered significant injuries, I can't think of any great basketball players who were better at the age of 23 than at 30.
    I can't decide if you're just playing devil's advocate here or really are this dense. But in case it's the latter, the overwhelming majority of players in *every* sport hit their statistical peak between the ages of about 25 and 28 and see their numbers start to deteriorate rapidly after the age of 30. Few NBA players are still performing at an all-star level at 34, let alone winning the MVP and scoring title at that age as Jordan did. (And note: 34, not 30. That's a hell of a big difference.)

    In case you don't believe me here are all the NBA MVPs since 1970 and the age at which they won their last one:

    35 - Karl Malone (The Keith Richards of Basketball)
    34 - Jordan
    32 - Kareem
    31 - Steve Nash
    31 - Hakeem
    30 - Julius Erving
    30 - Magic

    29 - Charles Barkley
    29 - Larry Bird
    29 - Kobe Bryant
    29 - David Robinson
    28 - LeBron James
    27 - Steph Curry
    27 - Kevin Garnett
    27 - Moses Malone
    27 - Dirk Nowitzki
    27 - Shaquille O'Neal
    27 - Willis Reed
    26 - Tim Duncan
    25 - Kevin Durant
    25 - Allen Iverson
    25 - Bill Walton
    24 - Dave Cowens
    23 - Bob McAdoo
    23 - Derrick Rose

  9. #309
    Quote Originally Posted by Brad to the Bone View Post
    I can't decide if you're just playing devil's advocate here or really are this dense.
    Great stats that don't address the situation at hand.

    I was responding to someone who stated that Michael Jordan was at his physical peak at age of 23, which is when most people are at their physical peak. It's a slow deterioration after the age of 24/25. So your numbers about the ages of 25-28 just reinforce my point. These are years OLDER than 23.

    His point was that some amount of incredulity should be awarded to Michael Jordan for winning titles and playing great in his early 30s. Is this past the man's physical peak - sure, if we're being technical about it, but the fact stands that Michael Jordan was one of the league's most athletic players in his early 30s, so why should it be at all surprising that one of the league's most athletic players was also playing great and winning? He was also a much better player at 32 than he was at 23, the slight physical diminishing notwithstanding. Of course, it should not at all be surprising.

    Had Jordan played well and won when he actually was significantly past his physical peak (when he played for Washington), that would be a story. But he did not win anything on the Wizards. Although he was their best player and high scorer, he could not even get Washington into the playoffs.

  10. #310
    I could respond, but it just isn't worth it.
    Hired on to work for Mr. Bill Cox, a-fixin' lawn mowers and what-not, since 1964.

    "Arguing with an idiot is like playing chess with a pigeon. It'll just knock over all the pieces, shit on the board, and strut about like it's won anyway." Anonymous

    “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” George Carlin

  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by Reginod View Post
    I could respond, but it just isn't worth it.
    Of course not - because you no longer have an argument.

    I'm taking *your* word for Jordan being at his physical peak at the age of 23 - which is not far-fetched, because that's the age at which most athletes are at their physical peak. If you want to make the argument that he was nearly at his physical peak a few years later at 28 - sure, I'll buy that. And he was not far removed from the age of 28 at the age of 32. Was Jordan a better basketball player at the ages of 28-35 than he was at 23? Yes, without question. He won his 5 MVPs at the ages of 25, 28, 29, 33 and 35.

    When Jordan was clearly no longer near his physical peak and no longer one of the league's most athletic players, his performance and his team's performance suffered.

  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by Facelift View Post
    His point was that some amount of incredulity should be awarded to Michael Jordan for winning titles and playing great in his early 30s. Is this past the man's physical peak - sure, if we're being technical about it, but the fact stands that Michael Jordan was one of the league's most athletic players in his early 30s, so why should it be at all surprising that one of the league's most athletic players was also playing great and winning?
    So we're all in agreement that Jordan was still playing at an elite level at an age when most players have either already retired or entered a significant decline? And you're argument is that that didn't make him great, it was merely the expected outcome of his greatness?

  13. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    Not only is Jordan the best ever, but imo, the gap between Jordan and the second best player is wider than the gap between any other 2 consecutively ranked players. (As I rank them.)
    If Geez was watching ball in his younger days, he'd have seen these greats, who I feel are right up their with Jordan - West, Robertson, Magic, Russell, Chamberlain, Bird - All deserve a spot on that podium.

    The problem with "Greatest Ever" is how much this game changes over the years and how that influences the success of different positions. For much of the late 70's and 80's Centers were dominate - scoring, defense, play-making and more. The league has had periods where guards were dominate and times where PF's ruled. All those players were great in their time, including Jordan.



    When I was a kid I thought I'd never see a player as dominant as Bill Russell, then along came Wilt, then Lew, then Dr. J, then Magic and Bird, then Jordan, LeBron, and now Curry, Thompson, Durant, etc.

    Oh, regarding the playoffs, we're ecstatic out here in California.
    Duncan's going to make a Horns Emoticon!!!

  14. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Eric View Post

    Oh, regarding the playoffs, we're ecstatic out here in California.
    According to the guys on ESPN Cleveland, who are out there in Oakland for the first 2 games, everyone from the locals to the nationals thinks this series is over. I hope the Warriors do too.
    He did not know that the sword he'd hold, would turn his priceless empire into fool's gold...

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  15. #315
    cunning linguist 3LockBox's Avatar
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    I've been meaning to ask this a long time so I'll ask now:

    When did it become fashionable to shoot the ball straight at the rim? I see so many players shoot with very little in the way of arc and when they miss it always results in a brick careening off the rim, resulting in a long rebound away from the goal. The best shooters though, still put some arc to their shots. Why do so many players still seemingly throw the ball straight at the rim (Kevin Love for example).

  16. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3LockBox View Post
    I've been meaning to ask this a long time so I'll ask now:

    When did it become fashionable to shoot the ball straight at the rim? I see so many players shoot with very little in the way of arc and when they miss it always results in a brick careening off the rim, resulting in a long rebound away from the goal. The best shooters though, still put some arc to their shots. Why do so many players still seemingly throw the ball straight at the rim (Kevin Love for example).
    My highly thought out and scientific answer for that is that some NBA players know how to shoot better than others.

    I personally believe that tonight is the Cavs game 7 already.
    "My choice early in life was either to be a piano player in a whorehouse or a politician, and to tell the truth, there's hardly any difference"

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  17. #317
    Quote Originally Posted by 3LockBox View Post
    I've been meaning to ask this a long time so I'll ask now:

    When did it become fashionable to shoot the ball straight at the rim? I see so many players shoot with very little in the way of arc and when they miss it always results in a brick careening off the rim, resulting in a long rebound away from the goal. The best shooters though, still put some arc to their shots. Why do so many players still seemingly throw the ball straight at the rim (Kevin Love for example).
    I usually watch the last couple minutes but most three's I've seen by GS looked like Flacco rainbow pass in the Denver playoff game where the safety fell down and the ball falls into Jacoby's gut. Curry has to rainbow his because of his height.
    NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF STUPID PEOPLE IN LARGE GROUPS!

  18. #318
    Member Vic2012's Avatar
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    If the Cavs have a prayer in this series they'll have to win tonight.

  19. #319
    Member Vic2012's Avatar
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    Like duh.......

  20. #320
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    I know it's going to sound like Ed, but I'm not liking this officiating so far.

  21. #321
    Geriatric Anomaly progeezer's Avatar
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    I'm already starting to hear the faint voice of Dandy Don starting to sing about this series.
    "My choice early in life was either to be a piano player in a whorehouse or a politician, and to tell the truth, there's hardly any difference"

    President Harry S. Truman

  22. #322
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    Yeah, I don't get why they're not even trying to play the same kind of game that they played in the first 3 rounds, but there's almost no way they beat this Warriors team 4 out of 5. It's basically over.
    He did not know that the sword he'd hold, would turn his priceless empire into fool's gold...

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  23. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    Yeah, I don't get why they're not even trying to play the same kind of game that they played in the first 3 rounds, but there's almost no way they beat this Warriors team 4 out of 5. It's basically over.
    Looks like I whiffed on this one (I picked the Cavs over GS before the playoffs began).

    I underestimated how good GS's playoff defense can be, and I overestimated the Cavs defense. It was only two games, but this Cavs team doesn't look capable of being a championship team as presently constructed. They can live with James + Love or Irving, but when both are out there, they are pretty weak defensively and can't stop anybody. It would be one thing if they were getting crushed by GS's best, but they've been getting whipped by the likes of Barnes, Barbosa and Livingston. One would think that the Cavs are too good to allow this to keep going on in their own building. But, being a lot more competitive and actually winning the pair of games are two different things. I'd be shocked if they don't win one of them, and winning the second one might come down to just a handful of possessions. For their sake, I hope that Lebron can take all of what he learned from winning these games in Miami, and get that through to the rest of the team. Otherwise, this will be a very dispiriting loss.

  24. #324
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    I was expecting to win game 2, but not in a blowout! Thought this would be a struggle as Cavs adjust and Dubs bench settles down, but it doesn't even look fair at this point.
    Duncan's going to make a Horns Emoticon!!!

  25. #325
    Busiest off-season coaching carousel ever?

    June 2, 2016 The New York Knicks hired Jeff Hornacek as Head Coach.

    June 1, 2016 The Houston Rockets hired Mike D'Antoni as Head Coach.

    May 29, 2016 The Memphis Grizzlies hired David Fizdale as Head Coach.

    May 20, 2016 The Orlando Magic hired Frank Vogel as Head Coach.

    May 16, 2016 The Indiana Pacers hired Nate McMillan as Head Coach.

    May 12, 2016 Scott Skiles resigns as Head Coach for Orlando Magic.

    May 10, 2016 The Sacramento Kings hired Dave Joerger as Head Coach.

    May 7, 2016 The Memphis Grizzlies fired Dave Joerger as Head Coach.

    May 5, 2016 The Indiana Pacers fired Frank Vogel as Head Coach.

    April 29, 2016 The Los Angeles Lakers hired Luke Walton as Head Coach.

    April 26, 2016 The Washington Wizards hired Scott Brooks as Head Coach.

    April 24, 2016 The Los Angeles Lakers fired Byron Scott as Head Coach.

    April 20, 2016 The Minnesota Timberwolves hired Tom Thibodeau as Head Coach.

    April 19, 2016 The Phoenix Suns appointed Earl Watson as Head Coach.

    April 17, 2016 The Brooklyn Nets hired Kenny Atkinson as Head Coach.

    April 14, 2016 The Washington Wizards fired Randy Wittman as Head Coach.

    April 14, 2016 The Sacramento Kings fired George Karl as Head Coach.

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