Jordan never won anything after he passed he passed his physical peak. He was the leading scorer for a Washington Wizards team that he never even took to the playoffs. Lebron James (albeit at his peak) took worse Cavs teams than Jordan's Wizards to the NBA finals. I'm not going to fault Jordan for not going to the finals with the Wizards at the age of 40, I'm just putting some perspective on what actually happened in his career.Originally Posted by Reginod
^^^ Nope. Jordan's second threepeat came well after he was 30. Perhaps we have a difference of opinion regarding the meaning of "physical peak", but AFAIC the guy that hung 63 on the Celtics in the 1986 playoffs was at his physical peak. The guy that won the second threepeat was still a killer, but not so explosive. The guy that finished out his career with the Wizards was still very good, but no longer exceptional.
Hired on to work for Mr. Bill Cox, a-fixin' lawn mowers and what-not, since 1964.
"Arguing with an idiot is like playing chess with a pigeon. It'll just knock over all the pieces, shit on the board, and strut about like it's won anyway." Anonymous
“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” George Carlin
Then your statement has no meaning. Nobody considers early-'30s Jordan to have been physically diminished. He was still one of the league's most athletic players during that time. He may have been a little bit more athletic at the age of 23 (1986), but so what? He wasn't as good of a player then, anyway. Except for those who suffered significant injuries, I can't think of any great basketball players who were better at the age of 23 than at 30.
Last edited by Facelift; 05-31-2016 at 01:59 AM.
Or in other words, "physical peak".
Hired on to work for Mr. Bill Cox, a-fixin' lawn mowers and what-not, since 1964.
"Arguing with an idiot is like playing chess with a pigeon. It'll just knock over all the pieces, shit on the board, and strut about like it's won anyway." Anonymous
“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” George Carlin
Or, in other words, a meaningless distinction, because then no great players were at their greatest at their physical peak.
Last edited by Facelift; 05-31-2016 at 02:33 AM.
Congrats to the finalists. Should be a hell of a rematch.
NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF STUPID PEOPLE IN LARGE GROUPS!
I can't decide if you're just playing devil's advocate here or really are this dense. But in case it's the latter, the overwhelming majority of players in *every* sport hit their statistical peak between the ages of about 25 and 28 and see their numbers start to deteriorate rapidly after the age of 30. Few NBA players are still performing at an all-star level at 34, let alone winning the MVP and scoring title at that age as Jordan did. (And note: 34, not 30. That's a hell of a big difference.)
In case you don't believe me here are all the NBA MVPs since 1970 and the age at which they won their last one:
35 - Karl Malone (The Keith Richards of Basketball)
34 - Jordan
32 - Kareem
31 - Steve Nash
31 - Hakeem
30 - Julius Erving
30 - Magic
29 - Charles Barkley
29 - Larry Bird
29 - Kobe Bryant
29 - David Robinson
28 - LeBron James
27 - Steph Curry
27 - Kevin Garnett
27 - Moses Malone
27 - Dirk Nowitzki
27 - Shaquille O'Neal
27 - Willis Reed
26 - Tim Duncan
25 - Kevin Durant
25 - Allen Iverson
25 - Bill Walton
24 - Dave Cowens
23 - Bob McAdoo
23 - Derrick Rose
Great stats that don't address the situation at hand.
I was responding to someone who stated that Michael Jordan was at his physical peak at age of 23, which is when most people are at their physical peak. It's a slow deterioration after the age of 24/25. So your numbers about the ages of 25-28 just reinforce my point. These are years OLDER than 23.
His point was that some amount of incredulity should be awarded to Michael Jordan for winning titles and playing great in his early 30s. Is this past the man's physical peak - sure, if we're being technical about it, but the fact stands that Michael Jordan was one of the league's most athletic players in his early 30s, so why should it be at all surprising that one of the league's most athletic players was also playing great and winning? He was also a much better player at 32 than he was at 23, the slight physical diminishing notwithstanding. Of course, it should not at all be surprising.
Had Jordan played well and won when he actually was significantly past his physical peak (when he played for Washington), that would be a story. But he did not win anything on the Wizards. Although he was their best player and high scorer, he could not even get Washington into the playoffs.
I could respond, but it just isn't worth it.
Hired on to work for Mr. Bill Cox, a-fixin' lawn mowers and what-not, since 1964.
"Arguing with an idiot is like playing chess with a pigeon. It'll just knock over all the pieces, shit on the board, and strut about like it's won anyway." Anonymous
“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” George Carlin
Of course not - because you no longer have an argument.
I'm taking *your* word for Jordan being at his physical peak at the age of 23 - which is not far-fetched, because that's the age at which most athletes are at their physical peak. If you want to make the argument that he was nearly at his physical peak a few years later at 28 - sure, I'll buy that. And he was not far removed from the age of 28 at the age of 32. Was Jordan a better basketball player at the ages of 28-35 than he was at 23? Yes, without question. He won his 5 MVPs at the ages of 25, 28, 29, 33 and 35.
When Jordan was clearly no longer near his physical peak and no longer one of the league's most athletic players, his performance and his team's performance suffered.
So we're all in agreement that Jordan was still playing at an elite level at an age when most players have either already retired or entered a significant decline? And you're argument is that that didn't make him great, it was merely the expected outcome of his greatness?
If Geez was watching ball in his younger days, he'd have seen these greats, who I feel are right up their with Jordan - West, Robertson, Magic, Russell, Chamberlain, Bird - All deserve a spot on that podium.
The problem with "Greatest Ever" is how much this game changes over the years and how that influences the success of different positions. For much of the late 70's and 80's Centers were dominate - scoring, defense, play-making and more. The league has had periods where guards were dominate and times where PF's ruled. All those players were great in their time, including Jordan.
When I was a kid I thought I'd never see a player as dominant as Bill Russell, then along came Wilt, then Lew, then Dr. J, then Magic and Bird, then Jordan, LeBron, and now Curry, Thompson, Durant, etc.
Oh, regarding the playoffs, we're ecstatic out here in California.
Duncan's going to make a Horns Emoticon!!!
According to the guys on ESPN Cleveland, who are out there in Oakland for the first 2 games, everyone from the locals to the nationals thinks this series is over. I hope the Warriors do too.
I've been meaning to ask this a long time so I'll ask now:
When did it become fashionable to shoot the ball straight at the rim? I see so many players shoot with very little in the way of arc and when they miss it always results in a brick careening off the rim, resulting in a long rebound away from the goal. The best shooters though, still put some arc to their shots. Why do so many players still seemingly throw the ball straight at the rim (Kevin Love for example).
My highly thought out and scientific answer for that is that some NBA players know how to shoot better than others.
I personally believe that tonight is the Cavs game 7 already.
"My choice early in life was either to be a piano player in a whorehouse or a politician, and to tell the truth, there's hardly any difference"
President Harry S. Truman
I usually watch the last couple minutes but most three's I've seen by GS looked like Flacco rainbow pass in the Denver playoff game where the safety fell down and the ball falls into Jacoby's gut. Curry has to rainbow his because of his height.
NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF STUPID PEOPLE IN LARGE GROUPS!
If the Cavs have a prayer in this series they'll have to win tonight.
Like duh.......
I know it's going to sound like Ed, but I'm not liking this officiating so far.
I'm already starting to hear the faint voice of Dandy Don starting to sing about this series.
"My choice early in life was either to be a piano player in a whorehouse or a politician, and to tell the truth, there's hardly any difference"
President Harry S. Truman
Yeah, I don't get why they're not even trying to play the same kind of game that they played in the first 3 rounds, but there's almost no way they beat this Warriors team 4 out of 5. It's basically over.
Looks like I whiffed on this one (I picked the Cavs over GS before the playoffs began).
I underestimated how good GS's playoff defense can be, and I overestimated the Cavs defense. It was only two games, but this Cavs team doesn't look capable of being a championship team as presently constructed. They can live with James + Love or Irving, but when both are out there, they are pretty weak defensively and can't stop anybody. It would be one thing if they were getting crushed by GS's best, but they've been getting whipped by the likes of Barnes, Barbosa and Livingston. One would think that the Cavs are too good to allow this to keep going on in their own building. But, being a lot more competitive and actually winning the pair of games are two different things. I'd be shocked if they don't win one of them, and winning the second one might come down to just a handful of possessions. For their sake, I hope that Lebron can take all of what he learned from winning these games in Miami, and get that through to the rest of the team. Otherwise, this will be a very dispiriting loss.
I was expecting to win game 2, but not in a blowout! Thought this would be a struggle as Cavs adjust and Dubs bench settles down, but it doesn't even look fair at this point.
Duncan's going to make a Horns Emoticon!!!
Busiest off-season coaching carousel ever?
June 2, 2016 The New York Knicks hired Jeff Hornacek as Head Coach.
June 1, 2016 The Houston Rockets hired Mike D'Antoni as Head Coach.
May 29, 2016 The Memphis Grizzlies hired David Fizdale as Head Coach.
May 20, 2016 The Orlando Magic hired Frank Vogel as Head Coach.
May 16, 2016 The Indiana Pacers hired Nate McMillan as Head Coach.
May 12, 2016 Scott Skiles resigns as Head Coach for Orlando Magic.
May 10, 2016 The Sacramento Kings hired Dave Joerger as Head Coach.
May 7, 2016 The Memphis Grizzlies fired Dave Joerger as Head Coach.
May 5, 2016 The Indiana Pacers fired Frank Vogel as Head Coach.
April 29, 2016 The Los Angeles Lakers hired Luke Walton as Head Coach.
April 26, 2016 The Washington Wizards hired Scott Brooks as Head Coach.
April 24, 2016 The Los Angeles Lakers fired Byron Scott as Head Coach.
April 20, 2016 The Minnesota Timberwolves hired Tom Thibodeau as Head Coach.
April 19, 2016 The Phoenix Suns appointed Earl Watson as Head Coach.
April 17, 2016 The Brooklyn Nets hired Kenny Atkinson as Head Coach.
April 14, 2016 The Washington Wizards fired Randy Wittman as Head Coach.
April 14, 2016 The Sacramento Kings fired George Karl as Head Coach.
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