I think the saying is used outside the restaurant business as well.Originally Posted by Gruno
I think the saying is used outside the restaurant business as well.
This is what I was getting at when I tried to explain to someone in a thread on the main board the difference between writing from the heart and writing for the purposes of acquiring broad appeal. I consider the former to be art (at least hopefully) and the latter to be craft... generally speaking. There's nothing wrong with being a craftsman if that's what you want to do, but an artist generally writes to satisfy one's self and if they try to second guess what people will think of it, the art is compromised. I realize that sometimes there's a fine line between the two; some accessible music that hits the pop charts was sincerely written from the heart by someone who loves and hears that kind of music in their head. But much more often, it's a musical formula calculated and conceived for the sole purpose of making a lot of $$$.
As someone who's been paying the bills for 35+ years by playing pop/rock covers, I sadly have to agree.
I would have to think you're right. And I'd be a member of that club if it wasn't for the fact that I'm constantly having to learn contemporary pop tunes to earn a living (and I know Klothos is in the same boat). But I have to admit, amidst the sea of dreck, every once in a while a fairly decent tune floats to the surface. It's never something that I'd purchase for my own enjoyment and it's all relative, but I'm pleased when anything that I have to learn is at the very least likable. This is one such tune (and of course ymmv):
It's a fairly nice melody and it's not as harmonically dull as most of today's pop, but I think what I like most about it is that it's somewhat interesting rhythmically. There's enough syncopations for it to be a bit more challenging to memorize... and challenging is good! I can memorize most contemporary pop tunes in a matter of 15 minutes; this one took a little longer.
^I imagine if you lived in the UK you may not have such a positive view of it- well, I don't. That song is everywhere, used on TV adverts etc., and I don't need to hear it ever again. See also- 'Blurred Lines', 'Get Lucky', 'Happy' etc., which were also everywhere when they were new.
I can't believe people invoking Bacharach/David, Goffin/King etc. here, as if that were the same calibre of material as the songs mentioned in the original article.
They were mentioned in order to prove the point that ghost writing has been happening for as long as there has been a pop music industry, not to compare the talents of those involved in the process.
"Corn Flakes pissed in. You ranted. Mission accomplished. Thread closed."
-Cozy 3:16-
I have to play all of those and they're boring and repetitive; no fun at all from a musician's standpoint. "Rather Be" is a cut above them imo. But I haven't played it as often. I think that the band leader is scared of it ever since the singer lost the form once and with the unforgiving pre-recorded tracks (another thing I hate about playing contemporary pop), it was a trainwreck. I'm sure if I was exposed to it enough, I could get sick of it eventually, but so far I still like it.
That was a golden age for pop music and I think Bacharach in particular was able to get away with stuff (like odd meters and big intervallic leaps) that would never even be considered by the industry suits today.
^Bacharach and his band did Glastonbury this year, I watched on TV. I knew 99% of the songs well, just astonishing to hear all those hits back to back.
No Pride, do you have to do One Direction and Taylor Swift material?
True but I'm not sure this is the right term. There was no deception, or any 'change a word take a third' thing going on.
Last edited by JJ88; 09-22-2015 at 02:16 PM.
Taylor Swift's "Shake It Off"... talk about repetitive; ugh! One Direction, not yet; hoping to dodge that bullet.
Why do I do it? Though many musicians think that kind of work is beneath them, I can make more money in much fewer hours than any kind of day job I'd be qualified for, affording me time to pursue creative and fun music that I'll never make a living at. All of life requires some compromise... and at least I have my guitar in my hands while at work. Besides, I'm working with people I like the vast majority of the time.
It is. My point remains that there are never too many cooks in the kitchen with music if it is what the artist is happy with.
Meh.
"Music by committee" (later PF albums, f'rinstance) tend to be as bland and bloodless as "movies by committee" (anything post 1976?)
I am not comparing quality. I am saying the music industry has always had hits being written by a small group of people. That is not implying a lack of quality and I even say so in my comment
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"Alienated-so alien I go!"
I'm sure you opinion is shared by others. I'm also pretty sure those artists would laugh at that opinion as they look out into the arena to thousands of fans who are having a great time witnessing that live performance.
There's a reason kids today are nostalgic for music from an era before they were born.
Uh-huh...
I agree-until recently, it had not been bloodless or bland. I don't think Bacarach or Nyro, for example, sounded bland or soulless at all
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Last edited by Rune Blackwings; 10-08-2015 at 11:43 AM.
"Alienated-so alien I go!"
No I know, I saw your post. I love that 'Brill Building' period...in The Beatles' earlier days, they did a lot of those songs and Motown ones.
That country mash-up is just awful, has anyone done something similar with all the 'producer pop' around at the moment?
Yes, a lot of 60's/early 70's pop hits were written by the same small group of songwriters or played by the same backing musicians, but there are huge, key differences here: they weren't purposely making their songs sound exactly alike (or "familiar" as the article states), they didn't use such a rigid formula, and those songwriters and musicians in the 60's and 70's were high profile. I don't know about the rest of you that were around then, but I was quite familiar with those names. What percentage of fans of the music profiled in the article are aware of the existence of any of these people? How many of you here that keep up with this kind of stuff were aware of these songwriters' names? And how about that "Change a word, get a third" songwriting credit crap? When I started this post, those were the things that made me shake my head... That and the fact that most of these people aren't Americans. I always gave Europeans a tiny bit more credit for not being so crass.
^Quite. A lot of those songwriters became big stars in their own right- Neil Sedaka, Carole King, Neil Diamond, David Gates, Randy Newman, Harry Nilsson etc. Those who didn't necessarily achieve pop hits or major album success at the time, are revered now- Burt Bacharach, Jimmy Webb...
Read this for more of the grim reality on this type of pop:
http://www.theguardian.com/music/mus...ts-songwriters
Sure. Turn on MTV.
Is it any wonder music is dying?It's common for artists to demand songwriting credits on a track – jokingly called "change a word, get a third" by songwriters – sometimes without having anything to do with the writing. An artist once demanded 70% of a song I had worked on, if she decided to record it. As the song was a three-way co-write, that would've left the three of us who actually had written it with 10% each. If an artist gets a co-writing credit like this, and then leaves the track off the album, they can prevent it being recorded by anyone else, as composers have the right to decide who will release the first recording of a song (they don't, however, have a right to deny anyone from covering it after the first release).
I play them, too....and Taylor Swift.......and Fifth Harmony.....and Meghan Trainor.......... arrrgh!
^^^ THIS is a KEY component to this conversation, because there is a HUGE difference in the way pop songs were penned, crafted, recorded, and produced in the days of yore compared to now
Looks like some of the musicians that play that crap get to let loose once in a while
Sometime in the late 90s/early 00s I read an interview with Tom Petty. He said he hadn't seen so much industry-controlled pap masquerading as music since the days before the Beatles, when you had acts like Frankie Avalon and Annette Funicello (sp?). Tom said it was a record label's dream, pop stars that did what they were told, songs that could be manufactured to appeal to tweens, teens, and soccer moms. The label, the producer, and the act's management get to control anything. No integrity, no independence, no soul and it was only going to get worse. He couldn't have been more prophetic.
It's a vast chasm having a hit composed by the staff in the Brill Building and a tune created by a half dozen producers recycling the same ideas over and over again, music with the very performance aspect rung out of it. People my age sneer at hipsters and their championing of indie bands no one has heard of but goddamn, at least there's some artistic freedom, someone bent on creating something they love rather than something programmed to be a hit. There's a fine line between making your music accessible and selling out entirely. Pop these days blows by that line without pausing an instant to reflect.
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down.'- Bob Newhart
I got that and I kind of agree.
That is a very good point.
One of my criteria for good music performance is the lack of background dancers. If it needs background dancers, I don't need it.
Lou
Looking forward to my day in court.
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