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Thread: Which new artists are today's flagships?

  1. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by bondegezou View Post
    Maybe Wilson has gained his preeminent role because he's done both: he's innovated, but he's also known for his work on the '70s stuff, and his solo work has become influenced by the '70s style. If he'd just done Porcupine Tree, or if he'd just remixed classic prog albums, he wouldn't be so fêted.

    Henry
    I guess but the reworking 70s stuff is different to copying it

  2. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by bondegezou View Post
    I think we have seen the development of a canon, a set of classic songs that will live on past the demise of the bands who wrote them.
    If that's true, then it's a terrible shame. The "original" bands weren't any more talented or special than the musicians out there now - it's just that they were first. They went out there and made their own original music, and that's what today's bands should be doing.

  3. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by Facelift View Post
    If that's true, then it's a terrible shame. The "original" bands weren't any more talented or special than the musicians out there now - it's just that they were first. They went out there and made their own original music, and that's what today's bands should be doing.
    Why? I don't think these two are mutually exclusive. Some musicians have a talent to make their own original music, others are better served with recreating stuff from the past, the original artists aren't playing. With classical and jazz, we see both, artists playing stuff that has been written in the past and people who create new music. As long as there is a market for both, there is nothing wrong with it.
    Another problem is perhaps the market for the stuff from the past is bigger than the market for new music.

  4. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by Rarebird View Post
    If the original artists aren't available for playing the music people like to hear, I suppose people have to cope with other artists playing it. It's just like with classical music and jazz.
    It's nothing like classical or jazz. In addition to classical music being true art music, the "artist" was not the original performer. It was music to be played by any ensemble with players capable of doing so. '70s prog is a form of pop music. So, it's fundamentally not any different from Beatles or Stones or covers bands. I don't understand why people would pay money to see that done live, either - the original recordings are there for all to hear any time they want.

    Jazz is a different story - each performance is a new work, even if the launching point is a "standard." If jazz ensembles want to start using progressive rock songs for material, more power to them, IMO. But, the audience for that would probably be tiny. The idea that covers/tribute bands playing Yes or Genesis is akin to jazz bands playing standards, however, is inaccurate. The songs aren't being totally re-made by the covers/tribute bands - in fact, the idea is usually to re-create the original.

  5. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by Rarebird View Post
    Why? I don't think these two are mutually exclusive. Some musicians have a talent to make their own original music, others are better served with recreating stuff from the past, the original artists aren't playing. With classical and jazz, we see both, artists playing stuff that has been written in the past and people who create new music. As long as there is a market for both, there is nothing wrong with it.
    Another problem is perhaps the market for the stuff from the past is bigger than the market for new music.
    There is no analogy to be made with classical and jazz here whatsoever - see earlier post.

  6. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by Facelift View Post
    There is no analogy to be made with classical and jazz here whatsoever - see earlier post.
    The analogy is, all music started as entertainment. and in the end it's the audience that decides what they want to hear.

  7. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by Facelift View Post
    If that's true, then it's a terrible shame. The "original" bands weren't any more talented or special than the musicians out there now - it's just that they were first. They went out there and made their own original music, and that's what today's bands should be doing.
    This is "and", not "or". To stick with the Transatlantic example, Kaleidoscope is an album of new music, with a bonus disc of covers. Just as, say, Yes have played covers of "America" etc. along side their own material. Or someone like Julie Slick can play King Crimson numbers in the Crimson ProjeKct and do her own stuff.

    Henry
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  8. #233
    Jefferson James
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    Quote Originally Posted by bondegezou View Post
    But why do you think tribute bands will be embraced more? The Musical Box or Australian Pink Floyd have probably done the best, but I don't think either carries the same weight in the prog community as, indeed, Transatlantic.
    Ah, I see -- "within the prog community." I was thinking more about the general listening public, not just our genre. In rock, in general, in 10 years time I suspect most larger-scale live concerts will be tribute acts. I hope I'm wrong but the sheer number of covers and bands I see on FB is mind-numbing. 99% of what music I see on my feed are covers.

    Quote Originally Posted by bondegezou View Post
    The genre needs flagships. It needs acts that most prog fans know about and have some respect for. Who will that be in 10 years time? It's not going to be a tribute band. But the connection to the '70s greats will live on through an established canon.
    Ten years from now, in the original music prog-rock genre, it'll be Steven Wilson, Neal Morse, Mike Portnoy, and whatever legacy artists are still alive carrying the torch. If someone else breaks thru the same-old, same-old, that'll be great, maybe that band doesn't even exist yet, maybe they do.

    Artists can do whatever they want, the issue isn't with new music and new artists, it's with an audience that doesn't have the time or the interest in investing in new music, either financially or time-wise. If playing "canon" covers gets an artist some exposure or otherwise ensures a level of success, that's cool.

    I don't see the point of, say, the Transatlantic bonus disk of cover songs; I listened to the covers on "The Whirlwind" bonus disk once. I suspect most do the same. That leaves two reasons for the covers disk: 1) the band wanted to play them, and 2) it's a selling point. "I've gotta hear Transatlantic's version of "The Giant Hogweed""!!!

    I know Beatles did covers pretty much all thru their careers (mainly the early years tho) but the majority of Beatle albums are 100% original music. That's the model I'm choosing to follow.

    Weird conversation!

  9. #234
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    There will be people doing music that resembles prog, and that by most standards is prog - for a few examples from this thread, Dungen, Bent Knee, and Jack 'o the Clock. But much of the "prog audience" won't be interested in or even aware of them. And when George Roldan sticks his neck out and books one of those bands at RoSFest, that legacy audience tends to scratch their heads and go out to have a beer - take a look at the RoSFest thread to see what I mean: http://www.progressiveears.org/forum...Sfest-Comments.

  10. #235
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baribrotzer View Post
    There will be people doing music that resembles prog, and that by most standards is prog - for a few examples from this thread, Dungen, Bent Knee, and Jack 'o the Clock. But much of the "prog audience" won't be interested in or even aware of them. And when George Roldan sticks his neck out and books one of those bands at RoSFest, that legacy audience tends to scratch their heads and go out to have a beer - take a look at the RoSFest thread to see what I mean: http://www.progressiveears.org/forum...Sfest-Comments.
    That's what happened with Landberk when I saw them at Progfest.

  11. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    That's what happened with Landberk when I saw them at Progfest.
    Jmo, but I'd say Landberk's best song was a cover.

  12. #237
    Absent the notion that "prog" is a genre, and discarding the notion that bands or artists need to qualify as "prog" to gain legitimacy, the world of music opens up and breathes much more naturally, and this discussion is moot.
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  13. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reginod View Post
    Absent the notion that "prog" is a genre, and discarding the notion that bands or artists need to qualify as "prog" to gain legitimacy, the world of music opens up and breathes much more naturally, and this discussion is moot.
    Of course it's moot. It's also kind of entertaining...
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  14. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by KerryKompost View Post
    Ah, I see -- "within the prog community." I was thinking more about the general listening public, not just our genre.
    My apologies: yes, we were talking at cross-purposes.

    Henry
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  15. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by Baribrotzer View Post
    There will be people doing music that resembles prog, and that by most standards is prog - for a few examples from this thread, Dungen, Bent Knee, and Jack 'o the Clock. But much of the "prog audience" won't be interested in or even aware of them. And when George Roldan sticks his neck out and books one of those bands at RoSFest, that legacy audience tends to scratch their heads and go out to have a beer - take a look at the RoSFest thread to see what I mean: http://www.progressiveears.org/forum...Sfest-Comments.
    Indeed. So, what happens next? Prog fandom shrivels to nothing? Or do enough newer acts -- Steven Wilson &c. -- inherit enough of the legacy audience to power the festivals, the magazines and the websites (which in turn support the unknown acts)? Or does the legacy audience die out?

    Henry
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  16. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Reginod View Post
    Absent the notion that "prog" is a genre, and discarding the notion that bands or artists need to qualify as "prog" to gain legitimacy, the world of music opens up and breathes much more naturally, and this discussion is moot.
    Aw, sweet.

    Nonsense, but sweet.

    People crave and need taxonomies. Genres exist because of patterns of mutual influence and exchange. Outwith those structures, the world of music is overwhelming and heterogeneity is lost. Whatever happens to prog, music genres will continue and they will continue to be a way for people to find new music and to connect to each other. Bands or artists will continue to be influenced by and influence others. My question is whether one of those networks retains a strong fit to the stuff we discuss on ProgressiveEars.org.

    Henry
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  17. #242
    Moderator Poisoned Youth's Avatar
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    Bumping this after a few years to spark (or re-spark) the discussion to see if anything has changed.
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  18. #243
    Member mnprogger's Avatar
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    since May of 2016, the bands/artists that have become more popular:

    Bent Knee
    King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard
    Thank You Scientist
    Southern Empire
    Barock Project
    Sons of Apollo

    But I don't think any of those would be considered "Flagships" and maybe King Gizzard is the only one who is even remotely well known outside of prog circles.

  19. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by mnprogger View Post
    since May of 2016, the bands/artists that have become more popular:

    Bent Knee
    King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard
    Thank You Scientist
    Southern Empire
    Barock Project
    Sons of Apollo

    But I don't think any of those would be considered "Flagships" and maybe King Gizzard is the only one who is even remotely well known outside of prog circles.
    IMO, United Progressive Fraternity should be considered as candidate for Flagship. While Big Big Train is considered a Flagship in Europe, their visit to the US next year could bring them aboard in the US as a Flagship.

  20. #245
    Member sergio's Avatar
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    Plini - instrumental
    David Maxim Micic - instrumental
    Caligula's Horse - prog metal
    Edensong - prog

  21. #246
    I'm here for the moosic NogbadTheBad's Avatar
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    PoiL
    Jack O The Clock
    elephant9
    Borth Sea Radio Orchestra
    Bent Knee
    Knifeworld
    Schnellertollermeier
    Yolk
    Free Salamander Exhibit
    Battles
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  22. #247
    I don't think there are any.

    The notion of a "flagship" indicates fulfilling some kind of objective criteria of accomplishment, rather than simply being the most popular/notorious/known from a group of bands that have little in the way of popularity or notoriety.

    I don't know of any prog/proggy bands formed since the mid 2000s that could really be said to be "flagships." Frankly, most of the names I see mentioned look almost like jokes. Schnellertollerheimer is a "flagship" band? How could this even credibly be put forth? They're barely known even among people that listen to progressive rock. Their most recent 2 albums have a grand total of 12 ratings on prog archives, and about 150 ratings on rateyourmusic. By contrast, you could find 2 Porcupine Tree albums with a combined near-20,000 ratings on rateyourmusic and 5000+ on prog archives. IMO, that's the level of significance in the genre that would be necessary for something to be called a flagship.

  23. #248
    I'm here for the moosic NogbadTheBad's Avatar
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    Except PT are hardly a new band. Their debut was nearly 30 years ago. I don't think there are any flagship new bands. I listed who I consider the cutting edge of the stuff I listen to. The real list is probably Wobbler, Steve Wilson & Haken.
    Ian

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  24. #249
    Moderator Poisoned Youth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NogbadTheBad View Post
    Except PT are hardly a new band. Their debut was nearly 30 years ago. I don't think there are any flagship new bands. I listed who I consider the cutting edge of the stuff I listen to. The real list is probably Wobbler, Steve Wilson & Haken.
    I think he was using PT as a benchmark, understanding they would not qualify. As such, Steven Wilson by extension also does not qualify.

    Haken is an interesting selection worth looking more into, but I have to tend to agree with Facelift in that there are arguably no flagship artists in progressive rock today. Part of the point of eliminating artists like Spock's Beard, Dream Theater, Neal Morse, IQ, Transatlantic, The Flower Kings, Porcupine Tree, BBT, Steven Wilson, Marillion, etc. is to expose just how much of a void that exists today. While all of these artists are recording today, they are carrying an old torch, and nobody has emerged to their level of success. Even if you expand your definition to include groups like Radiohead, Tool, Stereolab, Muse, GYBE, and more, they all have roots into the 90s.

    It paints a bleak picture for the genre.

    People on sites like PE live in a fascinating little bubble, where we can give artists like PoiL some attention, and where a band like Bent Knee appears (to some) as if they are about to sell a million copies of their latest album and hit the late night circuit. Bent Knee's most watched videos on YT are between 75-100k views. According to Spotify, their most popular song has a little under 300,000 streams. It does appear their latest album is doing well comparatively, but you have to put that in context (as more people are using streaming platforms like Spotify more today than just 1-2 years ago).

    But then consider Bent Knee is competing with 50 years of progressive rock (that favors the 70s), an aging demographic (entering their 70s), and the age of the internet, where users have full access to and are bombarded with more content than they can handle, fighting for their attention. Great music is lost in plain sight because it cannot keep up with the onset ADD that is present day culture.

    Bottom line, we live in a time today where progressive rock and other less "radio friendly" genres are flourishing in the amount of content, but are not able to secure an audience, sales, or influence. If it weren't for communities like PE, we wouldn't even know half of them.
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  25. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Poisoned Youth View Post
    I think he was using PT as a benchmark, understanding they would not qualify. As such, Steven Wilson by extension also does not qualify.

    Haken is an interesting selection worth looking more into, but I have to tend to agree with Facelift in that there are arguably no flagship artists in progressive rock today. Part of the point of eliminating artists like Spock's Beard, Dream Theater, Neal Morse, IQ, Transatlantic, The Flower Kings, Porcupine Tree, BBT, Steven Wilson, Marillion, etc. is to expose just how much of a void that exists today. While all of these artists are recording today, they are carrying an old torch, and nobody has emerged to their level of success. Even if you expand your definition to include groups like Radiohead, Tool, Stereolab, Muse, GYBE, and more, they all have roots into the 90s.

    It paints a bleak picture for the genre.

    People on sites like PE live in a fascinating little bubble, where we can give artists like PoiL some attention, and where a band like Bent Knee appears (to some) as if they are about to sell a million copies of their latest album and hit the late night circuit. Bent Knee's most watched videos on YT are between 75-100k views. According to Spotify, their most popular song has a little under 300,000 streams. It does appear their latest album is doing well comparatively, but you have to put that in context (as more people are using streaming platforms like Spotify more today than just 1-2 years ago).
    Yeah, that's it

    For either reasons that have been discussed many other times ("what is prog" + "modern prog is too self-referential and not really progressing") plus issues of tech + the apparent obsolescence of rock music in general, + the downfall of the album, the deck is pretty stacked against progressive rock, at this point. In short, it's a subgenre of a genre that is going through a rough patch itself, in terms of cultural relevance, and the vast majority of the bands to come out in the last 10 years are back-wards looking, either referencing ever-more obscure forebears, or taking up an unabashedly "retro" sound and wallowing in the sounds of 45 year-old music. It's also somewhat married to the culture of the album. This kind of ensures that it will reach an increasingly tiny and aging audience. Whereas the future of prog actually looked pretty promising 10 years ago (a solid 10+ years into its 1990s revival), the peak of that revival had already occurred. Although the stigma of playing progressive rock had diminished among the general population and contemporary music critics to a point not seen since the 1970s, and the prog references among more popular 2000s bands gave lots of reason for hope for the genre's future, the whole paradigm of rock music and the recording industry kind of collapsed. Progressive rock is still with a loyal fanbase, but the music itself has never seen more irrelevant, IMO. *All* rock music and anything with a connection to 70s/80s/90s rock music is perceived as "dad music" and is uncool and dated.

    All things must pass, I guess.
    Last edited by Facelift; 11-04-2019 at 07:39 AM.

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