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Thread: Is Zappa Prog? If so, why not in the Big 5??

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkelman View Post
    I don't know why there's even a question. Were it not for Zappa's early Mothers records, progressive rock would not have emerged, nor would it be what it ultimately became.
    I don't agree. Prog came about independently of the Mothers. I doubt that the Mothers even registered that much of an influence on those bands. Don't think they were taken seriously.

  2. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by seņormoment View Post
    I don't agree. Prog came about independently of the Mothers. I doubt that the Mothers even registered that much of an influence on those bands. Don't think they were taken seriously.
    The Soft Machine were a *SEMINAL* force in imposing the very concept of progressive rock music in the UK and on the European continent - and they were fundamentally influenced by Zappa/Mothers on their second album, which essentially established a standard for rock experimentation in those countries (UK, France, West Germany et al.). There are loads of other examples as well.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
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  3. #28
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean View Post
    He's BETTER than prog!
    better, not so sure...

    But he's certainly MORE than prog.


    As for the Q, nope!!
    because he's MORE than prog
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  4. #29
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    No; he doesn't really fit it, nor any other genre classification to my mind. Of course there is an audience crossover, but musically he covered a whole lot of ground. A true maverick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotum Scissor View Post
    The Soft Machine were a *SEMINAL* force in imposing the very concept of progressive rock music in the UK and on the European continent - and they were fundamentally influenced by Zappa/Mothers on their second album, which essentially established a standard for rock experimentation in those countries (UK, France, West Germany et al.). There are loads of other examples as well.
    Indeed...including that BBC version of the opening theme of 'Lumpy Gravy' by The Nice.

  5. #30
    What people mean by the "Big Five" is not the five most groundbreaking/innovative/unique/whatever prog bands/acts that ever existed, simply those that typify prog in the "collective consciousness". Nothing more, nothing less. Talking about acts that would "deserve" to be part of the "Big Five" instead of such and such is nonsense. It's not based on artistic merit (although the bands in question all have a lot of that), just posterity.

    Beyond this, as others have pointed out, Zappa is basically "not just prog, but so much more ALSO". Which you couldn't really about, say, ELP.
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  6. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by jkelman View Post
    I don't know why there's even a question. Were it not for Zappa's early Mothers records, progressive rock would not have emerged, nor would it be what it ultimately became.
    Not sure how you draw that conclusion. Prog seems to mostly have come about from a combination of psychedelic and classical music and granted Zappa was writing some classical music while with the Mothers, almost none of his classical music came out until much later. Besides, I don't think many European musicians knew much about the Mothers in the 60s. They rarely made it overseas.

  7. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by calyx View Post
    Beyond this, as others have pointed out, Zappa is basically "not just prog, but so much more ALSO". Which you couldn't really about, say, ELP.
    Well, ELP could sure do a mean boogie-woogie when really concentrated.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  8. #33
    Member Zeuhlmate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotum Scissor View Post
    Big six: Krimso, GGiant, HCow, Magma, allthings Dave Stewart - and Zappa.

  9. #34
    I do not get the need to stick people and bands into boxes. In cases where someone wants to claim a group that might not be considered "prog," it always seems to me it is an effort at appropriation. Sort of, I love the band, this is a prog site; ergo, that band I love is prog. Who cares? For all it is worth, Vander does not consider Magma prog, for example. We do. So who is right?
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  10. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Dana5140 View Post
    Vander does not consider Magma prog, for example.
    Ian Anderson does not consider Tull "prog", Phil C. has constantly stressed how Genesis weren't "prog" and at least not in the same tense as Yes and Pink Floyd were, Nick Mason does on the other hand NOT consider Floyd "prog", Chris Cutler appears to hate the term when applied on anything he's ever been involved in himself (mostly because of the company it bestowes on him), and Jonny Anderson sees Yes as something "above" all the rest.

    It's as with most paradigms of theory on literature; relate to the text (i.e. music), not to how on earth the forces behind it might intend for it to be interpreted.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dana5140 View Post
    I do not get the need to stick people and bands into boxes. In cases where someone wants to claim a group that might not be considered "prog," it always seems to me it is an effort at appropriation. Sort of, I love the band, this is a prog site; ergo, that band I love is prog. Who cares? For all it is worth, Vander does not consider Magma prog, for example. We do. So who is right?
    Well said. appropriation, or perhaps self-validation.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean View Post
    He's BETTER than prog!
    Here here! My favorite musician/composer and guitarist... EVER! Some come close but nobody did it like him and never will.

  13. #38
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    Some of the people that call Zappa prog are some of the same people that also call RIO and Fusion prog.

    What is prog? prog as a style or a genre doesn't exist, it is simply a word, which could just as easily be aarrgghh, to describe any and all experimental music that wasn't/isn't straightforward of its type be it pop,rock, jazz, soul, folk.

  14. #39
    ^^^

    Frank probably invented aarrgghhressive rock

  15. #40
    He's an American, and American's aren't prog in the same sense that Europeans are. But his music is amazing. IMHO....
    "Always ready with the ray of sunshine"

  16. #41
    Member Phlakaton's Avatar
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    In some ways I draw a parallel to jeet kune do in martial arts. Incorporating many styles into one open-ended philosophy. Using what is best for the one - could be classical bits - avant-garde - pop - rock - country - medieval --- I'll take it all. Just has to be mixed up the way I like it. Oh... and include Dave Stewart.

  17. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Baribrotzer View Post
    Although Johnny Cash didn't so much transcend country music as embody it: Around the time of his death, I said to several people, "Johnny Cash did not play country music. Johnny Cash was country music." ...
    My point was that he was much more than country. People tend to think of him as a country artist, but he was many things, folk, country, gospel, rock and more. He did just about everything and transcended being categorized. Just like Frank.
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  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkeneally View Post
    ^^^

    Frank probably invented aarrgghhressive rock
    I thought that was ELP - Pirates?


  19. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by PeterG View Post
    Some of the people that call Zappa prog are some of the same people that also call RIO and Fusion prog. [...] prog as a style or a genre doesn't exist
    Well, neither does RIO - as "style". Some so-called RIO artists (I could name at least 150 from the top of my loony head) are unquestionably progressive rock, but then some others aren't. Simply said.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  20. #45
    Progga mogrooves's Avatar
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    Not "Prog" as the term is historically understood but certainly progressive (as that term was understood at the time). Zappa was sui generis; he was to Rock what Ellington was to Swing, simultaneously of it and beyond it.

    What I recall from my misspent youth was how, with the exception of perhaps the Soft Machine, the Zappa heads I knew in the late 60s/70s wouldn't have been caught dead owning an LP by any band known as "Prog" (actually "Art Rock" at the time). They dug their Dylan, Dead, and Allman Bros. but also their Ornette, Art Ensemble, and Taylor. But "Big 5"? Not a chance.
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  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotum Scissor View Post
    The Soft Machine were a *SEMINAL* force in imposing the very concept of progressive rock music in the UK and on the European continent - and they were fundamentally influenced by Zappa/Mothers on their second album, which essentially established a standard for rock experimentation in those countries (UK, France, West Germany et al.). There are loads of other examples as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    Indeed...including that BBC version of the opening theme of 'Lumpy Gravy' by The Nice.
    This is news to me, which I'm glad to hear. The Soft Machine is a band that I never looked into. Totally missed 'em.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by mogrooves View Post
    What I recall from my misspent youth was how, with the exception of perhaps the Soft Machine, the Zappa heads I knew in the late 60s/70s wouldn't have been caught dead owning an LP by any band known as "Prog" (actually "Art Rock" at the time). They dug their Dylan, Dead, and Allman Bros. but also their Ornette, Art Ensemble, and Taylor. But "Big 5"? Not a chance.
    Not true of me. In fact it was the opposite - FZ was my gateway into prog, and I've never owned albums by any of the artists you cite. Indeed, the kind of college-intellectual guys I knew in school, who had the sort of tastes you describe, considered Frank a lightweight, inauthentic, and no true artist. The closest they came to him was Beefheart, who they saw as "the real deal" in contrast to FZ; several also numbered among that perceptive 2,500 who bought the first album by the Velvet Underground, a band they saw as "genuine" Art-Rock. And they despised "prog" even more than they did Frank. Later, some of them became the rock critics who championed punk as a return to "true" rock 'n roll.
    Last edited by Baribrotzer; 09-14-2015 at 10:44 AM.

  23. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by flowerking View Post
    I don't think many European musicians knew much about the Mothers in the 60s.
    Completely wrong. With underground audiences - which were getting bigger by the day come autumn 1967 - Zappa was a household name in both the UK, France, the Benelux (where he appeared with large types on festival programmes) and West Germany. He'd pack the Royal Albert Hall for two nights in a row in early '68, inciting near-riots in Paris on that very same European tour. Music journals even in Scandinavia would write about him and the Mothers regularly.

    Besides, there was hardly any "prog got born out of [...]" to speak of; like all developments in popular music (and popular culture as such) it was an evolutionary process, albeit an extremely swift and quick one. The influx of jazz, blues and folk was as prominent as that of wannabe-classical in so-called "proto-progressive" rock. Annexus Quam, Floh de Cologne, Supersister, Wigwam, Popol Ace, Samla Mammas Manna, Fläsket Brinner, Bonzo Dog Doo-Dah, The Plastic People of the Universe (from Czechoslowakia), Korni Grupa (from Yugoslavia) - these are just a SMALL section from a spectrum of pre-1972 European progressive groups who all adhered outspokenly to Zappa's influence. Fittingly, Hot Rats charted *big time* in the UK on release in 1969.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  24. #49
    Member No Pride's Avatar
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    Zappa was many things and amongst it all, some of it could fit into the music we associate with prog; odd meters, complex and difficult instrumental passages, multiple sections within a track, jazz and classical influences, etc. But he covered more musical ground than most prog bands would allow themselves to, or were even capable of. And the subject matter of his lyrics could generally be pretty far removed from... well anything anybody else was doing. Zappa's music doesn't fit neatly into any box, but I think enough of it was prog related (and certainly progressive in the literal sense of the word) enough to explain why he's discussed so frequently on (the main board of) this site.

  25. #50
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    I love the Zappa transcends Prog and would tweak it to read, Zappa transcends genre.

    My original question was prompted by the amount of "press" he receives on the board and wondered how many folks considered him Prog.
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