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Thread: Death of the "creative class?"

  1. #26
    Composers who are lucky to be approached to produce an original score for a movie within an orchestra the musicians get a basic pay and individual artists also get very little pay for their musical contributions in movies, however the average cost to produce, market and advertise a film in today's industry is in excess of $75 million with zero cost input by the musician, translating in a marketing dream and the returns for a blockbuster hit can be monumental. In terms of what you stated there "Pay to appear" in the movie and tv industry? I have not heard of any of that thus cannot comment on that. big hug to you xxxx
    P.S.
    Although it being a niche market and Blockbusters aside though, there are many thousands of films produced each year worldwide which do well, make money, and create income opportunities for composers and songwriters, both in the initial year of release and for many years afterward.

  2. #27
    Oh No! Bass Solo! klothos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonia_Mota View Post
    In terms of Orchestras and individually highly classically trained musicians, their skills continue to be in great demand, besides for theater productions etc, the movie industry is bigger than ever, both in the big screen or television. Music in the movies is an essential element of the filmmaking process and is one of the main factors that helps to determine box office success or failure.
    Except, that a lot of those movie scores in recent years are a programmer done on Reason (or similar) with an Orchestral Refill, and im also beginning to see pit orchestras in small market venues replaced by programmers (either predone tracks or custom)

  3. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by klothos View Post
    Except, that a lot of those movie scores in recent years are a programmer done on Reason (or similar) with an Orchestral Refill, and im also beginning to see pit orchestras in small market venues replaced by programmers (either predone tracks or custom)
    klotos;449882
    This would be music engineers and they too play part in this scope of discussion, it's very technical and somewhat also an "art".
    Highly skilled musicians tho' are still in high demand for tv and movie industry.
    hug
    Last edited by Sonia_Mota; 08-25-2015 at 04:49 PM.

  4. #29
    If anyone is interested and has a facebook account, this topic is being discussed here on fb, it's an open topic therefore anyone can read it
    https://www.facebook.com/angelo.huls...ged_with_story

  5. #30
    Oh No! Bass Solo! klothos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonia_Mota View Post
    klotos;449882
    This would be music engineers and they too play part in this scope of discussion, it's very technical and somewhat also an "art".
    Highly skilled musicians tho' are still in high demand for tv and movie industry.
    hug
    Back in 1989 when I started programming, it was very archaic: it was very much technical and very much an art..........with so many automated features, preprogrammed bundles, smart VSTi and VSTs, and improvements to "idiot-proofing" user-interfacing with visual musical iDEs (modern DAW programs), not near so much on either these days

    EDIT: Sorry, that may have sounded bitter and it wasnt supposed to - its just discussion. But I have been programming for 25 years -- I grew up with the technology and evolved with it as it improved and I can tell you, first hand, its way easier now (as a matter of fact, its not even close to the days of miles of midi cords, understanding message languages, and understanding all the parameters and control functions of the hardware)...and, in many cases and markets, it has also evolved to a point where no amount of musical theory, knowlege, or inherent talent is even required (although a decent ear is highly recommended)
    Last edited by klothos; 08-25-2015 at 05:39 PM.

  6. #31
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by klothos View Post
    (although a decent ear is highly recommended)
    ...and sorely lacking.

  7. #32
    Oh No! Bass Solo! klothos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    ...and sorely lacking.
    as much as Id love to make a rebuttal to this, I can't: SoundCloud is full of tracks done by "producers" on modern DAWs that can't hear that the vocal part of their song is in a totally different key than the music track and theres other a multitude of other examples of amateur "musicianship", not to mention a non-understanding of the technical side of digital mechanics, such as sample truncation at the infinity-line....Yes, my friend, very true

  8. #33
    People seem to be forgetting how much of the greatest classical pieces of all time were commissioned works.
    "The White Zone is for loading and unloading only. If you got to load or unload go to the White Zone!"

  9. #34
    Oh No! Bass Solo! klothos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronmac View Post
    People seem to be forgetting how much of the greatest classical pieces of all time were commissioned works.
    <forehead slap> damn, youre right!!.....even the Sistine Chapel was a commissioned work....that Michelangelo: what a sellout! ....that damn illustrator......

  10. #35
    *"Write a novel or record an album, and you can get it online and available for purchase right away, without persuading an editor or an A&R executive that your work is commercially viable. From the consumer’s perspective, blurring the boundaries has an obvious benefit: It widens the pool of potential talent. But it also has an important social merit.
    Widening the pool means that more people are earning income by doing what they love."
    (From the article)

    interesting article, the idea that the situation has changed, but that the overall equilibrium between artists and consumers remains stable makes sense to me. The other day I saw an announcement of an Argentinien musician on FB for a forecoming release of a tabla/e-guitar release. It sounded interesting and I entered in contact with the guitarist who is publishing soon a method for double handed tapping, that I will buy as soon as it comes out.
    Last edited by alucard; 08-26-2015 at 06:43 AM.

  11. #36
    Pendulumswingingdoomsday Rune Blackwings's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by klothos View Post
    <forehead slap> damn, youre right!!.....even the Sistine Chapel was a commissioned work....that Michelangelo: what a sellout! ....that damn illustrator......
    and he was commissioned by the Kochs of his day-the Medicis

    I think fine artists think artists prior to the invention of the camera were just whipping out frescos, altar pieces and mausoleum carvings on a whim: "It's a gorgeous day, Leo....think I will whip out a carving of Moses with horns on his head..."
    "Alienated-so alien I go!"

  12. #37
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Did Michaelangelo have an agent, finding commissions for him and telling him when his artwork was ready to release?

  13. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by ronmac View Post
    People seem to be forgetting how much of the greatest classical pieces of all time were commissioned works.
    You are quite right. It's what I said earlier in a different wording. Not only great classical works. I remember having read a school-teacher in a village was supposed to write one mass a year.

  14. #39
    Progga mogrooves's Avatar
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    It shouldn't come as any surprise that the "creative destruction" that has devastated so many other businesses/careers/jobs/industries is also affecting the "creative class." The Bureau of Labor projects that in the next five years alone, 40% of the entire American labor force will work in an "on demand," "gig" economy, in which workers will function as independent contractors, temporary workers, self-employed, part-timers, freelancers, and free agents rather than as "employees" in the conventional sense. In an "on call" economy, workers are fungible, sought only for their reliability, low cost, and desposability. If one is to be a member of the growing "precariat" anyway, hell, why not be an artist?
    Hell, they ain't even old-timey ! - Homer Stokes

  15. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by mogrooves View Post
    It shouldn't come as any surprise that the "creative destruction" that has devastated so many other businesses/careers/jobs/industries is also affecting the "creative class." The Bureau of Labor projects that in the next five years alone, 40% of the entire American labor force will work in an "on demand," "gig" economy, in which workers will function as independent contractors, temporary workers, self-employed, part-timers, freelancers, and free agents rather than as "employees" in the conventional sense. In an "on call" economy, workers are fungible, sought only for their reliability, low cost, and desposability. If one is to be a member of the growing "precariat" anyway, hell, why not be an artist?
    I wouldn't be surprised if we're already at 40%. It's especially rampant in the high tech community. And, yet, those who push their employees into contracting gigs with a big, "Fuck You, loser!" still expect their loyalty.
    "The White Zone is for loading and unloading only. If you got to load or unload go to the White Zone!"

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rune Blackwings View Post
    and he was commissioned by the Kochs of his day-the Medicis

    I think fine artists think artists prior to the invention of the camera were just whipping out frescos, altar pieces and mausoleum carvings on a whim: "It's a gorgeous day, Leo....think I will whip out a carving of Moses with horns on his head..."
    They always had to be mindful not to run out of pink.

    (Some may recognise the Terry Pratchett reference.)

  17. #42
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    I wonder, is the idea of a "creative class" even still valid?

    It presumes that ordinary people cannot be creative. That ordinary people should be satisfied with buying the creative output of a select class of people who are more creative, more talented, more refined than they. It diminishes the urge anyone might feel to express artistic sensibilities if they're not conservatory trained.

    It places artists in an inviolable position, where mere mortals aren't qualified to pass judgment on their art.

    Call me an old fuddy duddy, but I think that's led us to some very questionable public art installations, and a market for works based on their investment value rather than aesthetics.

  18. #43
    ^^ I think you're trying to read too much into it, Mr. Duddy.
    "The White Zone is for loading and unloading only. If you got to load or unload go to the White Zone!"

  19. #44
    Progga mogrooves's Avatar
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    As I indicated earlier, "creative class" has nothing to do with aesthetic value, artistic quality, or "talent." It's simply a classificatory category that refers to those people who work in what are generally regarded as "creative" occupations--musicians; actors; illustrators; artists; mimes; advertising; comedians; film makers; dancers; writers; TV script writers; radio personalities; etc., etc..
    Last edited by mogrooves; 08-26-2015 at 04:15 PM.
    Hell, they ain't even old-timey ! - Homer Stokes

  20. #45
    Parrots Ripped My Flesh Dave (in MA)'s Avatar
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    "Write without pay until somebody offers to pay you. If nobody offers within three years, sawing wood is what you were intended for." Mark Twain

    Shouldn't be restricted to writers, IMO.

  21. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by mogrooves View Post
    It shouldn't come as any surprise that the "creative destruction" that has devastated so many other businesses/careers/jobs/industries is also affecting the "creative class." The Bureau of Labor projects that in the next five years alone, 40% of the entire American labor force will work in an "on demand," "gig" economy, in which workers will function as independent contractors, temporary workers, self-employed, part-timers, freelancers, and free agents rather than as "employees" in the conventional sense. In an "on call" economy, workers are fungible, sought only for their reliability, low cost, and desposability. If one is to be a member of the growing "precariat" anyway, hell, why not be an artist?
    Back to the way we worked before industrialisation and institutionalisation of work? I don't mind, actually... the low cost thingy could get in the way, but there are ways around that (which I've been taking for 8 years now).

  22. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by mogrooves View Post
    As I indicated earlier, "creative class" has nothing to do with aesthetic value, artistic quality, or "talent." It's simply a classificatory category that refers to those people who work in what are generally regarded as "creative" occupations--musicians; actors; illustrators; artists; mimes; advertising; comedians; film makers; dancers; writers; TV script writers; radio personalities; etc., etc..
    Of course, creativity is not exclusive to the arts. Engineering, accounting and problem-solving, in general, are examples.
    "The White Zone is for loading and unloading only. If you got to load or unload go to the White Zone!"

  23. #48
    Progga mogrooves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by angelo View Post
    Back to the way we worked before industrialisation and institutionalisation of work? I don't mind, actually... the low cost thingy could get in the way, but there are ways around that (which I've been taking for 8 years now).
    I'm glad the things are working out for you. I feel lucky that I've been steadily employed in the same profession for 30 years, with job security, a strong union, and a pension. When I hear about the "gig"/on demand/Uber-ized/independent contractor/part-time labor force, I feel even luckier. A recent Oxford study projects that 50% of all current jobs will be gone in the next 15+ years. Pffft! Gone. Replaced with what? Low-wage service jobs, judging by current trends. I suspect this country will be unrecognizable in ten years, and I don't see a guaranteed annual income bill making it through Congress.
    Hell, they ain't even old-timey ! - Homer Stokes

  24. #49
    I'm here for the moosic NogbadTheBad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonia_Mota View Post
    If anyone is interested and has a facebook account, this topic is being discussed here on fb, it's an open topic therefore anyone can read it
    https://www.facebook.com/angelo.huls...ged_with_story
    Hi Sonia nice to see you here
    Ian

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  25. #50
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mogrooves View Post
    I suspect this country will be unrecognizable in ten years, and I don't see a guaranteed annual income bill making it through Congress.
    Well at the risk of raising politics, people still have the power to vote the Kochs out of control.

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